[espeak-gaeilge] Re: The issue of English vs. Irish phonemes
- From: Ronan McGuirk <ronan.p.mcguirk@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: espeak-gaeilge@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 21:20:43 +0100
Hi Robbie,
Can I suggest that you read the documentation at
espeak.sourceforge.net on eSpeak's approach to phonemes.
It is not simply a matter of English phonemes only. There are about 40
languages supported.
However, I agree that there may well be gaps and some additional
sounds may be needed for proper rendition of Irish.
It would be great if you could review the documentation and identify
particular phonemes that should be added.
I think the slender r may be a likely candidate.
Ronan
On 29/08/2012, RobbieS <robbiesin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Monday night, Cearbhall, Ronan and myself had a conference call on Skype
> to discuss general strategy, and in particular, whether the current set of
> phonemes being used were adequate or appropriate for the project. A
> combination of English phonemes are currently being used, and I contend
> that the Irish language uses quite a different set of phonemes, for the
> most part. We decided, at least, to look to see if such a set of Irish
> phonemes exist digitally, so that they might be used as our building blocks
> or jigsaw pieces. eSpeak may actually have them already: otherwise, TCD or
> UCD may have them.
>
>
>
> I said that if such digitised material doesn’t exist already, I am prepared
> to work with John Duddington (who is behind eSpeak), to make these
> phonemes.
>
>
>
>
> I may be wrong, but I got the sense that Ronan wasn’t completely convinced
> of the need to change the building-blocks being used. I know that he has
> put a lot of work into what is currently there, and it is not nice to think
> that such effort would be in vain. Ronan based his selection of English
> phonemes on the wikipedia article “Irish phonetics”, and I agreed to read
> this article and give a brief review (or my opinion, at least). I know
> that if such a radical shift as I’m suggesting is to be made, I must
> explain the case that shows it will be worth it. Although I have an
> aesthetic preference for Irish phonemes, it is their utility in terms of
> intelligibility which is the primary factor which should be considered.
>
>
>
> I’ve read the Irish Phonology article in Wikipedia, using voiceover. It
> could be my screen-reader, but there are occasional errors, such as dheas =
> jass, but for the most part, the article appears to be cosher, albeit prone
> to generalisations. The statement in the introduction that Irish
> consonants tend to be velar would be hard to substantiate, and I’m not sure
> about the labiodental v which is mentioned (would have thought that
> bilabial v was more accurate).
>
>
>
> My reading of the article was hampered by my inability to read (and
> decipher) the IPA symbols. Appreciation of the technical terms used in the
> article is a prerequisite to its utility. I’m a bit rusty on these
> (especially the terminology relating to vowel-sounds), but shouldn’t take
> too long to brush up.
>
>
>
> There are many net-resources to help, not least Wikipedia itslef:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_consonants
>
> Thiere’s a lot of material here, and it isn’t easy going with
> screen-readers. I have begun a summary relevant to English and irish, but
> in the meantime, here’s a brief map relating to English. All the
> consonants consist of one of the following variables, or a combination of
> them.
>
>
>
> 1. use or non-use of vocal-chords (voiced or voiceless).
>
> 2. the sort of passage of air through:
>
> 2.1: plosives involve the stopping of air, with a sudden release (e.g.,
> *b,
> c, ch, d, g, k, p, q, t, x).*
>
> 2.2: fricatives involve a restricted but consistent passage of air: (e.g.,
> *f, h, s, sh, v).*
>
> 2.3: Nasal (e.g., *m *and *n*).
>
> 2.4: lateral (e.g., various L-sounds).
>
> 3. Parts of the mouth used to make the sound:
>
> 3.1: lips and teeth (i.e., both lips = bilabial; lip on teenth =
> labiodental,
>
> 3.2: part of the mouth touched by the tongue (gum-ridge or soft palate).
>
> 3.3: part of the tongue used and (tip, middle, back).
>
> 3.4. Shape of tongue: especially in subcontinental Indian languages,
> tongue can be curved to make different sounds. I don’t think it need
> concern us too much.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The comparisons made in the “Irish Phonetics” wiki article, between irish
> and English phonemes are approximations for the benefit of an Anglophone
> reader: the article is in English, after all. The technical description of
> the Irish consonants in the article are sound (excuse the pun), but are not
> reflected in the phonemes currently being used in eSpeak-Ga. The glide
> sounds or vowels following on from these consonants should be an intrinsic
> part of the same phoneme, rather than the current structure which has an
> English consonant along-side a different vowel phoneme. The current
> structure, therefore, makes the building of good and intelligible Irish
> sounds into a mammoth if not impossible task.
>
>
>
> By acquiring more suitable building blocks or jigsaw pieces (my metaphors
> for phonemes), we make the task much easier, and even feasable at all.
> Even
> if we can’t get consonant and glide-sound in the same phoneme, we still
> need to make sure that the difference between Irish and English consonant
> sounds are reflected in our synthesizer. For instnace, as noted by the
> article, there are four types of “l” sound in irish, and at least three
> types of R-sound, and the difference between these is essential to the
> meanings of words. This diversity is a real help to the synthesizer-maker
> and the maker alike.
>
>
>
>
>
> More suggestions:
>
> 1. “dó” (number and preposition) sound the same as “deo” in espeak.
>
>
>
> 2. “Trí” in eSpeak-Ga sounds just like the number “hree” in English. This
> could be alleviated by improving the slender-t. eSpeak’s pronunciation of
> “tigh”, for instance, is basically an English t-sound with a y-ound after
> it to represent a slender t, and after this, the letter “I” is pronounced,
> so an English phonetic of the result is “tyig”. If the Irish slender-t was
> more faithfully rendered, then we could be able to do away with the
> y-element altogether. In the Suggestions folder I stated that this slender
> t would ideally be between the English ch-sound and the English t-sound: I
> meant by this that the tongue-shape was between the two (a tongue-shape
> similar to slender c, d, l, n, r and s in Irish. That is, that the middle
> of the tongue touches the palate and the tip of the tongue doesn’t touch
> anything (making a sibilant sound).
>
>
>
> 3. The slender gh in Irish is made by vibrating the back of the tongue
> against the palate (coived), and the same for “ch” (except “ch” is
> unvoiced). Currently, with eSpeak, they are both being sounded like the
> English g or c.
>
>
>
> 4. The slender R needs to be improved. Compare, for example, “braon”
> (meaning drop of liquid) and “bréan” (meaning disgusting). They sound
> identical in eSpeak-Ga. Last time, I mentioned the rs or rzh sound that
> can be made by vibrating the tip of the tongue off the palate (in slender
> cases), and keeping the tongue stationary in that position to make a sort
> of whistling *rs * sound (in the cass of broad double-r).
>
>
>
> 5. Espeak is doing funny things with “naoi” (the number nine). The
> broad-L sound I mentioned in the previous email is similar in many ways to
> the irish broad N when either are followed by *aoi*, in that they are both
> dental, with the tip of the tongue (or just behind it) touching the
> upper-teeth. The only difference is that the N is nasal. Comining away
> from this sound, necessitates a broad glide-vowel with the tongue. The
> Irish phonetics article put it well when it describes a w-sound without the
> rounded lips. But comparing the plosive initial consonant of “caoi” with
> the nasal initial consonant in “naoi” was unnecessarily confusing. How to
> put this broad-N into voice-synthesis is the tricky bit, I suppose. There
> is another broad-N sound and two more slender-N sounds. I suppose the
> important thing to do is to at least make sure that all the slender Ns
> sound different to the broad Ns.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> go n-éirí linn le chéile,
>
> Robbie
>
===========================================================================The
eSpeak-Gaeilge mailing list
Manage account or unsubscribe: //www.freelists.org/list/espeak-gaeilge
Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/espeak-gaeilge
Administrative contact: omeadhrac@xxxxxxx
=========================================================
Other related posts:
