[elky] Re: OT House Circuit Breaker Troubleshooting
- From: Chris Lindh <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2014 11:36:41 -0500
My electrician is good and inexpensive, but he is hard to get to come out
(he actually came out a year ago and we talked about this)... he's happy to
help me figure out things over the phone. I left him a message Friday and
his wife called and they came Monday morning... I think she's wanting him
to work up some Christmas money. Long story short he spent 3 hours here
and found:
* The circuit breaker with problems did not have the correct neutral wire
going to it
* One receptacle is bad, neutral broke off from being pulled out
repeatedly, also looked like the wires were nicked, so he taped them
* One outlet box was hidden by having been covered with joint compound -
WHAT? Why did this happen?
I replaced the bad receptacle and added the new one with a cover. It was
obvious a receptacle was never installed. Very odd. The electrician knew
where to find it because there wasn't an outlet within 6 feet of the door.
Then we could see the shape of it in joint compound.
Very glad the electrician came, I would never have figured it out. He also
got outlets in my soffit working, which will make running the Christmas
lights much easier this year. Fingers crossed this problem is solved. If
it comes back I may replace the receptacles that I haven't already
replaced. They are the cheap kind and they don't hold up to being pulled
out and pushed in several times. I like the back wire clamp & screw type.
On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Robert Adams <elcam84@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> OK good info. There may be something not quite right in a switch outlet or
> fixture. And that can be anything from a bad light socket to wiring to a
> miswire but since it works fine with a regular breaker I'm not too worried.
> Arc fault breakers can trip from just the spark created by flipping a
> switch or plugging something in. Often just too sensitive. Desktop
> Computers can cause arc faults to trip as well due to the switching power
> supply in them.
>
> Usually I'd just swap it for a regular 20 amp breaker and then
> test the outlets and fixtures on that circuit. Make sure there is no
> voltage between the ground and neutral on an outlet. I would usually pull
> the covers off and inspect connections as well. Especially if it has a
> light fixture. Light fixtures are cheaply made imo.
>
> There is also a possibility that someone shared that neutral
> with another circuit and that can cause some goofy issues with AFCI
> breakers. I have also talked to guys that have seen nuisance trips due to
> the wire being close to another and the EMI causing a perceived imbalance
> by the breaker causing a trip.
>
> Personally I'm not a big fan of them. They cause problems
> and one breaker costs 10x the price of a regular one. 2 breakers costs more
> than a whole panel...
> They started requiring them in some residential applications
> recently and varies by city as some require more of them. Kind of in the
> same category as gfci when it comes to annoyance level etc.
>
> The newer ones are better now and don't nuisance trip
> as much. If you want scary electrical look at what canada does. They still
> allow stabloc panels there. Square d still sells them in canada but the
> breakers are white plastic instead of black. They will not comment if they
> are better than the ones the us pulled the UL listing for.
> On Nov 9, 2014 1:08 PM, "Chris Lindh" <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Looking at it more today.
>>
>> * There was a recall of these breakers in the year that this house was
>> built ('04), but the date code does not appear to be one in the recall, the
>> code is hard to read
>> * Circuit does work when wired to a standard 20 amp breaker next to it -
>> all outlets test to be wired correctly using a receptacle tester
>> * Circuit trips when load is applied when wired to 15 amp arc fault
>> breaker next to it - doesn't trip until load is applied (turn a light on,
>> plug something into an outlet, etc.)
>>
>> My theory is there is a neutral that is not correct, possibly one of the
>> three can lights. There is a surge protection system on this panel that is
>> not lit, indicating it is not working.
>>
>> Thinking about just replacing that breaker with a standard 20 amp, since
>> I know it will solve the problem. What are the risks?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 7:54 PM, Robert Adams <elcam84@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Homeline arc fault breaker... They recalled many many of those early
>>> ones because of nuisance trips. Unfortunately they are becoming code
>>> everywhere and cause headaches. Often they get swapped for a regular
>>> breaker until the house is resold. Regular breaker $4 arc fault $40...
>>>
>>> It's possible that a bad outlet or switch can cause it to
>>> trip. Or a loose or missing wire nut in a box. Make sure that the neutral
>>> wire off that arc fault is solid. Tighten the screw in the neutral bar
>>> holding it tight. All fasteners in the panel should be as tight as you can
>>> get without causing damage.
>>> Tightening the neutral will not shock you. It is bonded to
>>> the ground in your panel. You will see a green screw that connects the
>>> neutral bar to the can.
>>>
>>> You said you swapped breakers. I understand that the 15
>>> amp popped when the problem circuit was hooked to it or the other way?
>>>
>>> If that circuit works when hooked to another breaker
>>> then most likely the breaker is bad.
>>> Shoot any info my way and I'll try to help.
>>>
>>> Robert Adams
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 7, 2014 3:32 PM, "Chris Lindh" <chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have a circuit in my house that trips the breaker when any load is
>>>> introduced:
>>>>
>>>> * Plug in anything to outlets - trips the circuit (20A)
>>>> * Turn on the lights on that circuit - trips the circuit
>>>> * Swapped wires from one breaker to its neighbor (15A), trips the same
>>>> * When you reset the breaker all outlets test to be wired correctly
>>>> using a receptacle tester
>>>> * Breaker has a "Test" button, breaker part number is Square D
>>>> hom120cafi / dp-3640
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas? Internet research suggest there may be a grounded neutral
>>>> somewhere. This is the guest room, it has been this way since we bought
>>>> the house last year.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>> Chris
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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