Re:[cpsig] photo dating: The Mountaineer & T1b's

  • From: Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 13:33:39 -0500

At 09:39 AM 6/3/2006 -0400, Dale Wilson wrote:

There's some interesting general information here and perhaps some of
you will have some thoughts on the questions Rob is asking.


Hi Dale,

I've sent this directly to the CP sig list

>The photographer was standing near the mouth of the lower portal of the
>lower (not certain) spiral tunnel, with a T1b Selkirk at the head (and no
>helper).  The locomotive number is not apparent, but it is a T1b because I
>can clearly make out the second stream-lined stack cowling mid-length along
>the boiler.  It pulls one mail or baggage car, which is seen emerging from
>out of the darkness in the tunnel.  No smoke from the locomotive, which
>makes me wonder how long it had stopped here?

Rob,

I think what you have is a staged publicity photo. They may have stopped the Mountaineer and cut off the first cars and run them ahead for the composition, or sent out another T1b with some baggage cars to pose with the tail end of the Mountaineer on the other level. Since there is no smoke, it would appear that the locomotive has been sitting for a bit, and I'm sure they would not stop a loaded passenger train in the tunnel if they could help it.

>
>According the Lavallee, T1b's were introduced in November & December 1938, I
>believe.
>

>   a.. a Soo Line car noteworthy for the solarium lounge windows at the
>rearward end.  The name of the Soo car is not very legible, but I see enough
>to know its the St. Croix River.  It is documented on The Mountaineer as
>early as 1936, so that doesn't help shrink the potential date range.   And I
>don't know if it ever went in other than Soo maroon paint.  It has the words
>SOO LINE stencilled on the letter board, and has an illegible three digit
>number stencilled along the sides at each end.   The roof shows the air
>conditioning blister from the solarium end to about 3/4 of the way forward,
>which may help date the car.   I assume it was air conditioned after it was
>built - guessing in the late 30's???

This would be Soo Line 762 ST.CROIX RIVER, one of four cars built for this train in June of 1929. these were all returned to Pullman to have a/c applied in May of 1936, but your dating of the locomotive to late 1938 already sets a later limit. As far as anyone knows (since there are no known color photos) the Soo cars were always maroon. All four were sold to the US Gov't in April of 1943 for conversion to hospital cars. Since Canada entered the war earlier than the US, I suspect your photo was taken during the 1939 summer season.

> a.. a Pullman car - its name is illegible, but two words. Not all the car
>is shown - its partially outside the frame of the photo.  The windows are
>the older style for steel cars - narrow, rather than "picture windows".
>They are all individual windows, not pairs, and they are separated with
>steel panels about twice their width between each.  Looking at the
>Branchline Trains selection of possible models, their best match (windows
>and roof) would be the distinctive 6-3 Pullmans.

I assume that you can read PULLMAN on the letterboard. This probably doesn't tell us much; this is one of the few CP passenger trains that was a regular Pullman run. Don Thomas has found a copy of the 1936 contract between CP and Pullman, and it calls for five cars year round, with an additional fifteen cars during the summer. There should have been a similar contract between the Soo Line and Pullman, but it has not yet come to light. We do, however, know the names of all the cars regularly assigned to this train (all 8-1-2's) and none is two words, so this is likely one of the extra cars Pullman was supplying during the summer from its pool of cars, and could be anything.

>The St. Croix River and the Pullman car appear closer to the same tone of
>grey than does the darker CPR car.  While one always has trouble discerning
>colour from a black and white shot, I wonder if there is a difference
>between the colour of the Pullman and Soo line cars - but its very subtle
>and so doubtful.  If the St. Croix River was always red, or changed colour
>at certain dates, it might help but the ambiguity in the photo would steel
>leave some doubt.  If it is green, would it be lettered Soo Line at all?

Speaking from experience, Soo maroon and Pullman green always look about the same in B&W photos, and any difference is more a function of the film rather than the color. Both colors turn very dark on orthochromatic films, and both turn a medium gray with panchromatic films, so there is really no way to tell the two colors apart in B&W photos.



Dennis Storzek
Big Rock, IL


Other related posts:

  1. Home
  2. cpha
  3. Archive
  4. 06-2006