Hi Robin,
Both of your observations last evening are important I think, and I'd like
to better understand the implications and inferences that arise from both of
them. Does this raise a real issue with respect to the colour of Centburne,
for example? Even more curious for me are those travel agencies. That is
an area where there is bound to be advertising and other research material
out there to be found. It possibly helps tie together Don's comments about
Pullman cars on the Dominion (i.e. east of Moose Jaw) with the more obvious
Pullman traffic flowing up over the Soo. All very interesting to me.
Rob Kirkham
--------------------------------------------------
From: "robin lowrie" <rlowrie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:20 PM
To: <cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Re: Pullmans on CP Passenger Trains
Folks:
Let us all remember that there were various reasons for Pullman cars to be
on CP
trains in the fifties. At least one American travel agency offered a "Great
Circle" tour of North America. Sometimes,
Pullman cars got "out of sequence" and had to be deadheaded. There were a
wide variety of charter groups.
Robin Lowrie
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Salfi" <mikesue.salfi@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [cpsig] Re: Pullmans on CP Passenger Trains
Dennis,
Regarding your comment that the WP and Pennsylvania cars may have been
coaches, I can add that the WP car was at the very front of the consist
where coaches would more likely occur and the Pennsylvania car was towards
the rear of the train, behind the Pullman sleepers and ahead of the Canadian
Pacific sleepers and Canadian Pacific open air observation car. As well,
these sequences are identified as being taken in 1952.
I did say Pullman coaches in my initial post, I will be more careful about
that in future posts, as the Pullmans are obviously sleepers.
I do agree that this passenger train was more likely the Mountaineer but how
about the other passenger trains on the DVD that had only one, or two
Pullman sleepers with the remainder of passenger cars being CP?
Finally, the passenger trains on the Kettle Valley route were identified as
being trains 11 and 12, does that sound correct for the early 1950's?
Mike
On 6/25/09, Dennis Storzek <destorzek@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I'm back, and now have time for a bit more digging.
--- In cpsig@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <cpsig%40yahoogroups.com>, Michael Salfi
<mikesue.salfi@...> wrote:
>
> Great discussion on this topic, I certainly have enjoyed it and have
> also
> picked up some good information. I re-watched the western portions of
this
> video paying particular attention to the lettering on all of the cars.
None
> of the cars (that I could read) were lettered Soo Line on any of the
trains...
As I tried to convey in my earlier message, Pullman cars only operated
painted Maroon with Soo Line lettering for a relatively brief period of
time, from Janarury of 1951 when the first of the Soo owned cars was
repainted into this scheme, until October of 1955 when they were withdrawn
from lease to Pullman and had their names replaced with numbers. It
appears
that at this point they were no longer used in international service. Even
during this period, they wouldn't be seen everyday, because they were in a
pool with five other cars that remained lettered Pullman.
Here's the "smoking gun" that Rob was looking for, from the consist of the
Mountaineer posted by Fred Shannon as message 5596:
PASSENGER TRAIN ARRIVELS AT VANCOUVER B.C. FOR JULY 23RD, 1955
TRAIN NO.13 THE CPR/SOO MOUNTAINEER ARR. OT.
BM 4243 BAGGAGE EXPRESS
CH 2257 68 SEAT COACH
CH 2121 72 SEAT COACH
DI WINGFIELD 36 SEAT DINING CAR (HW)
SS CENTBURNE 8-1-2 SOO LEASEE/PULLMAN SLEEPER (HW) SOO MAROON
CT GLENDUN 10 COMP'T SLEEPER (HW)
RM BALSAM GROVE 10-5 SLEEPER
PO CAPE SCOTT 1-4 PARLOR OBSERVATION SLEEPER (HW)
DI WOODSTOCK 36 SEAT DINING CAR (HW)
SS OLD MANSE 12-1 PULLMAN SLEEPER (HW) TTG
SS LAKE VERRET 10-1-2 PULLMAN SLEEPER (HW) TTG
SS BATTLEMENT TOWER 8-1-3 PULLMAN SLEEPER (HW) TTG
SS POPLAR PLAINS 6-6 PULLMAN SLEEPER (HW) TTG
CT LAKE ONTARIO 1-4 BUFFET PARLOR COMP'T SLEEPER (HW)
SS CENTRLPINA 8-1-2 CPR LEASEE/PULLMAN SLEEPER (HW) CP MAROON
PO 7912 72 SEAT OPEN OBSERVATION WOODEN
I found this consist puzzling as it has both a Soo and CP owned Pullman
car
in the same train. However, Don Thomas has since Pointed out that CPR had
terminated their agreement with Pullman in May of 1955, so apparently the
Soo car was running as a Pullman pool car. Fred has posted some consists
of
the Mountaineer from subsequent dates on the Passenger Consists List at :
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/passconsist/
Several of the CPR owned Pullman cars appear in these consists alternating
with similar CPR cars from the "R" series.
> even the train with a heavy emphasis on Pullman cars and also WP and
> Pennsylvania. There were some sequences where I could read the > lettering
on
> all cars, and in those sequences there were only Canadian Pacific and
> Pullman cars. I also noticed at least one green Pullman on the train
> that
> had the red and grey Pullman (paint scheme) car.
>
> Since all of this footage is taken in and west of Banff, and thus west
> of
> Moose Jaw, and since Don Thomas indicated that the Dominion could carry
> Pullmans switched to or from an extra section of the Mountaineer west > of
> Moose Jaw, it is not unlikely this is film of the Dominion.
It is even more likely this was train 13 or 14, the summertime
Mountaineer.
Additional comments about the Western Pacific and Pennsylvania cars. The
original message in this discussion called the foreign cars "coaches". I'm
not sure of the poster was using that for a generic term for passenger
cars,
or if he really meant they were coaches as opposed to sleepers. In
consideration of Mr. Horvath/s comment that the Western Pacific had no
sleepers with their name on the letterboard, we can't discount the fact
that
these are, indeed, coaches. While most charter groups coming up from the
US
used Pullman company sleepers, there are some groups that would charter
coaches. Children going to camp / scouting / religious affairs come to
mind,
as do the movement of military personal. I'm just surprised that cars from
railroads at opposite ends of the US should be together in the same train,
but of course, anything is possible, at least occasionally.
Either way, the logical route into western Canada is either the summertime
Mountaineer, or the off season Dominion, through its connection with the
Soo-Dominion.
Dennis
