Hi all:
I was talking (or e-mailing) with Stephen a few days ago about Sadhanas
theme. My opinion was: If I answer, I take the bait (I don´t know if this
is a valid expression in english, we used to say pisar el palito o morder
el anzuelo), because it wasnt clear to me from where inner-place she was
writing that, what was her intention (my sense was its a trap)
.
Ive finished to read her (last) post ... I keep my doubts, but I also feel
a lot of pain in her post
If shes right or wrong (or me), its not the
point right now.
I enjoy my learning path and Im thankful for everyone in CT, even if I
dont agree o happy with their posts.
So, I take a risk and post my point of view.
Love and Light to all (including and Sadhana)
Julio.
Julio Príncipe Portocarrero
Consultor en Desarrollo Organizacional
Clientes y Organizaciones SAC
(511) 2220791
www.cyo.com.pe
http://systemicoaching.blogspot.com/ ;
_____
De: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] En nombre de anni
Enviado el: Jueves, 24 de Septiembre de 2009 07:06 p.m.
Para: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Asunto: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Fw: Sadhana apoligizes
Thank you, Chris,
Personally, I did take the time to read that post and although I perceived a
lot of antagonism, my other perception was that it made no sense. Sadhana, I
have been pushing my delete button since you told Dan you were shooting him
in the foot. I once witnessed a murder by shooting. So for me, that phrase
was enough for me to say, no more. But, I read the email you sent to me
directly today and honestly did not find any wisdom or insights or joy in
it. I found nothing that furthered discussion or enlightened me in any way
as to your stand. Anni
--- In ConstellationTalk@ <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "Chris Walsh" <chrisjwalsh@...> wrote:
in
Hi all,
As a result of this post which entirely disrespectful on so many ways and
which Sadhana is contemptuous of the feedback which she requested on herown
initiative, Sadhana has now been placed on moderation. I have sent hermore
specific feedback privately.www.cwalsh.com.au
hasta la vista
Chris Walsh
806 Lygon St Carlton 3054
(Melbourne, Australia)
ph: +61 (0)3 9347 4300
fax: +61 (0)3 9347 4355
web: <http://www.cwalsh. ;<http://www.cwalsh.com.au/> com.au/>
yahoogroups.com
From: ConstellationTalk@ <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@ ;<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kay Needham
Sent: Friday, 25 September 2009 4:56 AMyahoogroups.com
To: constellationtalk@ <mailto:constellationtalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Fw: Sadhana apoligizeswhich
----- Forwarded Message ----
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 4:53:38 AM
Subject: Sadhana apoligizes
Dear Constellation friends,
It is time for honesty. My search for an apology, and the moderators
adgenda of respect was Chris's idea. They have functioned as secondary
influences to facilitate a primary and essential energy exploration of
movement. My search has not been for an apology nor respect; my search has
been to expose and understand my "will to annihilate," prey, and that
lies beneath; in myself and others.will
You are all too kind or blind in your good conscience and refusal to judge
me. I am guilty of intermittently being engaged in a covert will to
annihilate; and I have decided to blow the whistle on this group and my
to survive. A will to survive that resists life in the form of hatred,the
competition, superiority and other assorted destructiveness, that feeds
soul of this group.belongs
"Yes this is also in the service of survival, to kill and take what
to others."Buffalo
"Each large scale conflict wants to get something out of the way."
"Ultimately it seeks to annihilate it."
Like I said to Chris, I needed help, many participated.
The "will to annihilate" was included, and a movement freed.
I have had a good laugh at all the "peeking before deleting" antics and am
grateful for the peek!
I sobbed my heart out when I read Anni's story about Head Smashed in
Jump. I did'nt know why at the time but I do now.in
I also cried when I read Dans post about the "father" and sobbed as I was
caught in an interupted reaching out movement towards my own father whom
those moments I managed to reach.hate"
I remembered Theresa Guerilla when Hania brought her back, and was very
touched by Hanias openess and Theresas rebelliousness.
I also pondered whether I should signature my postings "much love and
after reading Dougs post.given
I loved Snehs wisdom about eating and will add to it shortly.
And to Stephen and all the other women who have contacted me you have
me much to digest that has fed the strength to follow this movementthrough
to the end.conscience.
Chris and Dan, my good conscience is in conflict with your good
the
" Anything new threatens the cohesion of the group and, therefore, its
current form of survival. And it is true that if a group gives room to the
new, it will have to dissolve or reorganize into a different form."
The differences between you and me are primarily the difference between
masculine and the feminine principles.I
My fathers name was Bernie.
Bad Bernie
Bad Bernie was in prison for seven years. The day he got out, his wife and
son were there to pick him up. He came through the gates and got into the
car.
The only thing he said was, "F.F."
His wife turned to him and answered, "E.F."
Out on the highway, he said, "F.F."
She responded simply, "E.F."
He repeated, "F.F."
She again replied, "E.F."
"Mom! Dad!" their son yelled. "What's going on?"
Bad Bernie answered, "Your mother wants to eat first!"
This morning I was taking washing off the line, and amongst it was an old
bedspread that had been on my parents bed for decades that my dog has been
sleeping on. As I took it off the line and took it into the house I found
myself not wanting to let it go. I began crying and hugging it as if I was
hugging both my parents. I felt like a small child. My parents have both
passed on. As I stood there in those few moments, in an instant I realised
was resisting taking what they offered. An inner voice said "I can't feedas
off you, its ugly; they replied "you must", and held me as I let go of my
good conscience and protection of them, and agreed. I sat hanging onto the
bedspread and sat with them for a while. After a little time my mother
stepped forward and said "Eat first" and then my father stepped beside her
and said "Fuck Second!." We then all had a good laugh!
Now I have eaten Chris and Dan, you know what I am going to do next! This
is why I needed the extra time, to eat first.
Yes, it was an eventful day today as things began to come to completion.
I took my dog for a walk this morning. There were 3 little girls standing
on a balcony in a holiday unit waving at me and my dog Shae the samoyed,
they were yelling hello. They did the same thing yesterday morning. Just
I responded with hello Shae decides she wants to shit, so I stop, feelingconflict,
somewhat embarrassed as she does her business while they look on. I bend
down to pick up the poo with my doggy bag and right where she has shit is
another doggy poo. Instantly Hellingers words came to me.
"Can individuals protect themselves from this? They are exposed to
even without participating in it at all. But even then such individualsare
themselves in danger of responding to such agressions with their ownit
destructiveness, which they may have great difficulty keeping it at bay."
I thought, now if I don't pick up that poo a stranger can interpret that
was Shae that did it. What the hell, I like a clean street and my bag wasasked
big enough to put in two poos, so I did!
Dan has sent me a private email referring to "netequitte", that he has
me not to share. Dan this constellation net has alot of poos all over theleft
screen, they are not all mine and my bag is not big enough to carry them
all. This I ingested from Thomas's last post about "being too big." I am
learning. I have also decided that I will clean up after myself and
everyone else needs to take responsability for their own poo they have
on constellation talk.speak
Dan has also said that he found some of my recent posts damaging to the
fabric of CT group. Dan I am glad it is damaged. Its too good conscience
is presently prohibiting soul movement.
He also says my post was "disrespectful because it was interpreted to
to the 90% of CT members who read only and do not contribute posts."of
Dan you have misunderstood, my post was posted by my "will to annihilate"
for myself, you and Chris (and a few others who will know who they are by
now;) and you are right I am accusing all of us of "feeling special, or
better than others. It is hurtful and insulting."
Dan what fuelled your venemous attack on Osho? Was it not a displacement
the "will to annihilate?"and
"Within a legal system that protects the individuls from their own
destructiveness and that of others, we still see groups living our their
destructive tendencies through displacement onto other levels."
"Instead of searching together for for the best sdolution, and observing
examining issues in an objective manner, the members of the other party orand
school of thought are attacked with words of abuse, slander, defamation."
Dan you are known as somewehat of an expert in this field as contibuting
much knowledge about victim perpetrators and you have missed the very core
of it.
What continues to fuel your relationship with me? What feeds it? I also
ask the same of Chris?
Chris what was behind your false enthusiasms, "Bravo Sneh!", referrals to
cultish thinking, and so called "agreement" with Kay, " last posts? When I
read it I said to my partner, this man is hitting me with his enthusiasm
he does not agree with me at all; is he mad or what?others.
"Of course madness comes in degrees, but the basic movement is there. The
individual self is dissolved in a collective. The collective consists of
nothing but anonymous people, who-through the spell of the same good
conscience- have all succumbed to the enticement of superiority over
This is the same movement that leads to enthusiasm. In a field ofeven
collective enthusiasm, individual perception and discernment recede and
disappear completely, to be replaced by delusion as a surrogate."I
What can I do with this covert "will to annihilate?" Do I remain prey? Do
turn predator? How do I turn it into a creative future? This was mysearch.
connection
Dan, Chris and others, my "will to annihilate" has been unaware and
destructive in my past associations with this group and life in general. I
have been perplexed by the inner knowing that I have to accept it. Until
today I judged it as inappropriate or ugly. I was locked into my good
conscience. For this I am truly sorry and sincerely apoligize. It is only
now with the help of this group that I am able to recognise what it is I
needed to get out of the way, in order to connect in a more friendly way
with life in general.
"There are movements between people which are based on a need for
with each other, and a friendly curiousity, wanting to get to know eachprevents
other."
These past few days I have understood that hatred is an existential
interupted reaching out movement that pollutes and prevents life from
happening in the present. Fight and flight is what disconnects and
completion. I have chosen to remain connected to you all and to my "willto
annihilate"; which I no longer percieve as fight, for the first time in mythe
life. I'm off my fence now and holding an image of a creative future of
"completion." Remember? This was the other post I made at the same time as
"sitting on the fence.", that nobody has mentioned.
Yesterday in Australia there was a huge dust storm that engulfed much of
country and 75,000 tons of dust blew everywhere originating from thecentral
desert. Our previous floods had left this soil on the surface of ourhow
deserts. Last night in my dream an Aboriginal elder gave me a lesson in
to throw a boomerang to kill. The message was that when one totallyengages
in this act of kill which serves life, and it hits its mark, it does notthis
come back to you. This morning I am remembering the Australian Aborigines
and the stolen generation and "the apology" by our politicians. Perhaps
is also the essence that lies below the politics of this apology, andnow
perhaps this is why our people of origin are still pursuing reform. Life
begins the process of eating us. It is all about balance afterall.is
This group is like any other group in the grip of existential crisis. It
polarized by good conscience and continues to feed off exclusion andchose
rejection. Somebody is paying. I allow you to have a good feed off me, and
I am feeding off you! I am in awe of nature at work here.
ANNI - HEAD SMASHED IN BUFFALO JUMP
This story was of great value to me in this search. The young warrior
to learn about what happened to Prey. His focus was not the "will toin
annihilate" with the masculine. He went to the bottom silently supported
his aloneness by the feminine to recieve knowledge of how prey or victimsit
become food and serve life. His love was for the victims and prey. To do
this he had to look from the bottom up, not the top down. He wanted to
understand what was there in the gap between life and death, predators and
prey, fight and flight, fear and love, night and day............what
happened to prey before it became food. The smashing of the head is
symbolic. What happens here is hidden in the dark night of the soul, it is
recreation.
Heart felt thankyou to everyone. I may or may not be able to speak to you
again, it is in the lap of the Gods whoops, I mean moderator(there it is
again-the will to annihilate in the form of sarcasm!) Caught it! I reckon
I'll get good at this. Let me rephrase, it is in the lap of the God in
Chris. Just in case Chris decides not to post this I have already sent it
to all who have been involved and a few more. So if you recieve it twice
means I'm still in! Sorry Chris! The devil made me do it! I learnt a longlong
time ago that it is alot easier to get forgiveness than it is to get
permission.
SPECIAL MESSAGES TO SPECIAL PEOPLE.
MELODY MANDERO
Melody tell the women elders I have remembered what they had taught me
ago. "Eat well, fuck well in a right order and life will take care of theson
rest." Tell them "go get em! Eat em alive!" Love
MARIA DOLNEC
Maria, remember our constellation when my representative was standing
looking up? The whole field trembled, when the eyes came down. You said
"he (my son) wants something from you." When the eyes went down we
connected. Perhaps this is what he wanted.....my eyes now look down also.
Love.
BIRGIT MOKLINE
Birgit remember when my son was in the Ethiopian family line of his father
and there was nothing but generational hatred? The representative of my
said "I feel lost". Perhaps this will help him to find himself. Loveyou
THOMAS BRYSON
You were happy to hear that I had consented by saying to my son "even if
turn our exactly like your father (full of hatred) I agree." I never knewI
was also agreeing to all of this. Lovestance
SAM BORRETT
Sam remember when I held hands with my brother and then my son and his
father? This is the image of completion. Love
MYBAN AND LEWIS OF THE BUNGALONG
I am honoured by the invitation. I will wait until the dust clears. Love
FRANCESCA BORING AND RELATIONS
Fran and family thankyou for your silent, strong, unwavering systemic
and support, it helped. One thing I ask. Are you able to say more aboutup
Australian Aboriginal "Dry" ? Love
I have copied the chapter of Berts Book Rising in Love - Major conflicts;
and placed it on the bottom of my index webpage...........that is actually
what provoked my enquirey. I must have read it more than 15 times in the
past week. Interesting reading about us. I got caught up in a movement
which said effect first. If I'm not mistaken, I think you are all caught
in it too. Thankyou all from the bottom of my belly, I only ever wanted toConnor
move closer to you. I now understand what was in the way. I will work
positively to reform.
www.familyconstellationeducation.com
Go to bottom of page
MAJOR CONFLICTS-The Will To Annihilate, taken from Rising In Love By Bert
Hellinger
Hasta la vista Sadhana
'Hasta la vista, baby' came to the wider attention of the English-speaking
world via the 1991 film Terminator 2: Judgment Day, which was written by
James Cameron and William Wisher Jr.
The phrase features in an exchange between the film's characters John
(Edward Furlong) and 'The Terminator' (Arnold Schwarzenegger):me."
John Connor: (Sadhana) No, no, no, no. You gotta listen to the way people
talk. You don't say "affirmative," or some shit like that. You say "no
problemo." And if someone comes on to you with an attitude you say "eat
And if you want to shine them on it's "hasta la vista, baby."
The Terminator: (Chris)Hasta la vista, baby.you say, "chill out"! Or you can do combinations.
John Connor: (Sadhana) Yeah but later, dickwad. And if someone gets upset
The Terminator: (Chris) Chill out, dickwad.This phrase has of course been in everyday use in Spanish-speaking
John Connor: (Sadhana) Great! See, you're getting it!
The Terminator: (Chris) No problemo.
countries for some time. It was used in the popular song Looking for a New
Love.
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