Dear Friends,
I have observed that children chatter away and that this is their way to
process thoughts, feelings and sensations. Adults keep things to themselves and
begin to be their own teacher in silence and connected with their souls.
Warm regards and saludos de México,
Ingala Robl, M.A.
www.constelaciones.com.mx
www.iessowelu.edu.mx
On Jul 31, 2014, at 11:04 PM, ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Constellation Talk Group
15 MessagesDigest #2484
1aRe: question on mother issue by lewesfengshui
2aRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "Chuck Cogliandro"
mkdrum1
2bRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "Alison Fornes"
apf.rm
2cRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by lynxdn
2dRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "Heiki Eesmaa"
heiki_e
2eRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "jack blackwell"
artistryinhealing
2fRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "Thomas Bryson"
thomas.bryson@xxxxxxxxx
2gRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "kenn day" kenndeigh
2hRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "Edward Phillips"
2iRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "Katia del Rivero
Vargas"
2jRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "Julio PrÖncipe"
2kRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "Heiki Eesmaa"
heiki_e
2lRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition? by "Julio PrÖncipe"
3aRe: "don't talk about it" by "Anne Beversdorf" annebeversdorf
3bRe: "don't talk about it" by "Irma Boyle"
Messages
1aRe: question on mother issue
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:16 am (PDT) . Posted by:lewesfengshui
Thank you Angwyn, that is a really helpful observation!
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Top ^
2aRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:17 am (PDT) . Posted by:"Chuck Cogliandro" mkdrum1
The inner healing movements of a constellation are medicine for the soul, for
both the person setting up the constellation as well as the ancestral family
spirits, and the representatives. The movement comes about because the soul
is ready to transform/release the images held in the unconscious to new forms
that are more healthy, that allow for more vitality, clarity and creativity.
Sometimes the images have been held for much of the time the person has
lived, and were created in the family lineage generations before that.
Therefore, this is a very deep dramatic change on the timeless level of the
soul- a dimension with very different parameters than normal, rational,
waking consciousness. At the end of the constellation, if the client has
dropped in deeply to the field and connected to the family soul, a portal has
opened and both these dimensions are present together- the timeless shamanic
depth of soul and the linear, mental level- and there can be confusion,
disconnect, a feeling of strangeness.
Our teachers, Peter and Jamy Faust, call the post-constellation sensation
"the snow globe effect"- the feeling that the globe has been shaken, the
scene inside is still the same, but there is a lot of snow flying around and
it takes a while for it to settle down again so the scene can be clearly
visible. It takes more courage and strength to remain in this unsettled state
of being, but it allows the soul medicine to work. Not talking, not moving
into the thinking mind- which is where language and definition arise-
supports the medicine working longer. We don't call it a rule or hold it as a
restriction in our groups but we suggest, based on our experience, that
participants don't talk about their constellation for three days for the
above reasons. They can meditate and journal on it and we encourage that, but
we caution that speaking about it too soon can dissipate the soul medicine
prematurely. After three days they can talk about it with whoever they choose.
We also very clearly say to all, that this is the end of the constellation,
we don't add anything to it, and we respect the healing space of the client
and we ask representatives to not tell the client of their own experiences or
ask the client any questions. If the client is in confusion or great
uncertainty either my wife or I are happy to sit quietly with them if there
is a short break and listen and give support and guidance, but we try not to
move the client into analysis or figuring anything out. The reverential space
and the mystery are powerful supports for creating opportunity for change and
new images to move in.
peace,
Chuck
Chuck Cogliandro
Family Constellations Facilitator
Brennan Healing Science Practitioner
Kumandi Drums & Healing
404-966-5800
www.kumandi.com
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Top ^
2bRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:24 am (PDT) . Posted by:"Alison Fornes" apf.rm
Thank you all for these lovely responses.
Your email, Chuck, reminds me to be present to my own discomfort around
things being unsettled. What a terrific reminder!
On Thursday, July 31, 2014, 'Chuck Cogliandro' chuck@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The inner healing movements of a constellation are medicine for
the soul, for both the person setting up the constellation as well as the
ancestral family spirits, and the representatives. The movement comes
about because the soul is ready to transform/release the images held in the
unconscious to new forms that are more healthy, that allow for more
vitality, clarity and creativity. Sometimes the images have been held
for much of the time the person has lived, and were created in the family
lineage generations before that. Therefore, this is a very deep dramatic
change on the *timeless* level of the soul- a dimension with very
different parameters than normal, rational, waking consciousness. At the
end of the constellation, if the client has dropped in deeply to the field
and connected to the family soul, a portal has opened and both these
dimensions are present together- the timeless shamanic depth of soul and
the linear, mental level- and there can be confusion, disconnect, a feeling
of strangeness.
Our teachers, Peter and Jamy Faust, call the
post-constellation sensation "the snow globe effect"- the feeling that the
globe has been shaken, the scene inside is still the same, but there is a
lot of snow flying around and it takes a while for it to settle down again
so the scene can be clearly visible. It takes more courage and strength to
remain in this unsettled state of being, but it allows the soul medicine to
work. Not talking, not moving into the thinking mind- which is where
language and definition arise- supports the medicine working longer. We
don't call it a rule or hold it as a restriction in our groups but we
suggest, based on our experience, that participants don't talk about their
constellation for three days for the above reasons. They can meditate and
journal on it and we encourage that, but we caution that speaking about it
too soon can dissipate the soul medicine prematurely. After three days
they can talk about it with whoever they choose.
We also very clearly say to all, that this is the end of the
constellation, we don't add anything to it, and we respect the healing
space of the client and we ask representatives to not tell the client of
their own experiences or ask the client any questions. If the client is in
confusion or great uncertainty either my wife or I are happy to sit quietly
with them if there is a short break and listen and give support and
guidance, but we try not to move the client into analysis or figuring
anything out. The reverential space and the mystery are powerful supports
for creating opportunity for change and new images to move in.
peace,
Chuck
Chuck Cogliandro
Family Constellations Facilitator
Brennan Healing Science Practitioner
Kumandi Drums & Healing
404-966-5800
www.kumandi.com
--
*It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that
heals.alisonfornes.com <http://alisonfornes.com>*
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
Top ^
2cRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:34 am (PDT) . Posted by:lynxdn
Thank you everyone for an in-depth discussion of the sources of our
injunction against speaking about our constellation experiences.
Each type of speech leads to an alternative impression of experience.
Appreciative speech or words of gratitude and choice may boost the pace of
"absorption" of a constellation. "I am humbled that when I took the risk
to step forward for this constellation I learned so much. I learned ... "
Of course, there's the analysis speak of science and dominance and this seems
suspect for our use when reviewing within ourselves or others a constellation
experience.
It comes down to our intentions when we speak. And also when we listen. We
may need patience because one person's spoken path to awe may have to run
through analysis. Then, and only then, perhaps, when they "cannot explain it
any further" and the scientists say, the mystery and wonder manifest again
into their souls.
Oh, a reminder, as yahoogroups archives all our messages, please take a
moment when responding to delete the long tail of prior messages that
yahoogroups automatically loads. Doing this will reduce the clutter of
following these threads. Thanks.
John Perkins, Seattle, WA 98105
[earlier messages in thread deleted]
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Top ^
2dRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:03 am (PDT) . Posted by:"Heiki Eesmaa" heiki_e
"Don't talk about your constellation" - it does seem to me a practical
injunction against dissipating what was lived through in an altered state
of consciousness. Specifically, even though the representatives are within
the gross realm, what opens up is the subtle realm (compare assumption of
godforms in ceremonial magic). The subtle realm is worked through with
images, taking them as they are, without verbalizing or mentalizing what
they are. A good summary of this is in John Rowan's book The Transpersonal,
p 125 et seq (
http://books.google.ee/books?id=oZBmAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA108&ots=C0iskVPahN&dq=john%20rowan%20subtle&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q=john%20rowan%20subtle&f=false
)
There may be a superstition attached to this principle also besides its
practical importance. That can be processed and done away with via favorite
technique of emotional processing.
Interested in discussing this further.
best regards
Heiki
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Alison Fornes maitreya71@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
Hi All,
(Note - SKIP TO "Here are my questions" if you just want to skim this
email.)
I am recently returned from the 7th North American Systemic Constellations
Intensive, which I had the privilege of directing this year. I feel the
expansiveness in my heart as I think about it! It was wonderful. Thanks to
the faculty: Francesca Mason Boring, Dan Booth Cohen, Ed Lynch and Bill
Mannle! And to all who attended and co-created such a beautiful, sacred
space.
My wondering comes out of a Constellation I asked for in my group on the
last day. It was not a personal Constellation in the usual sense, and it
wasn't clearly resolved because we didn't have time.
A few people from that group have reached out to me, and I noticed my
hesitance in talking about it too much. However, the hesitance feels more
like my response to the "rule" that we shouldn't talk about our
Constellations. And so I'm left wondering about the evidence for that
restriction. Or if perhaps I have been misinterpreting, in which case,
perhaps I'm not the only one?
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS / thoughts:
1. We acknowledge that our day-to-day, personal consciousness is not the
main driver of our lives. Constellations clearly reveal that aspects of our
deeper systemic consciousness manifest through _symptoms_ in our personal
consciousness but are usually not seen for what they are in terms of
ancestral roots of trauma, etc. AND even if we do have a sense of their
ancestral roots, talking about it doesn't seem to resolve it. This is shown
by the experience of very slow process of talk therapy, vs. the much
shorter and incredibly effective Constellation healing. So one might say in
this case: talking has very little effect on the larger field.
The one place talk therapy is recognized as effective, though, is when the
talk hits on the deeper roots of an issue. Then we can feel in our bodies,
as in the Focusing work of Eugene Gendlin, that something has resonated and
moved.
2. I also have started engaging in dream work, especially the practice of
"Lightning Dream Work" described by Robert Moss. In this process, once the
dream is presented to a group, participants respond to it with the
statement "If this were my dream..." and they give their thoughts as if it
were LITERALLY their dream. It's quite a special process, as it reveals
multiple facets of what's in the larger field of that dream. The dreamer
can then take what's relevant to them, and is often shown new things they
had never considered. That information, provided not just through the
experiencing of the dream but also through the elucidation of the dream
using words, is quite valuable. Again, it feels like it has the effect of
moving something resonant from the wordless Field into our personal
consciousness, which can be very healing.
The "If this were my dream" has started moving into my Constellation work,
and now when I experience a Constellation that is not mine, there are times
when I talk about it using that language, especially if the seeker is
confused by the Constellation.
Silence vs. Words -
3. On the other hand, there is a clear place for silence. The profound,
sacred beauty of a Constellation often creates its own silence, naturally.
It's a silence that emerges from the movement in the Field. You can also
feel how, if you try to tell someone of the experience, there's a way it
can feel like profanity, as in irreverence or desecration. That contrast
between silence and words makes sense to me in the context of Constellation
work.
4. Finally, there is the way I have interpreted / misinterpreted the idea
"don't talk about your constellation" - this is where the superstition part
comes in. I have had the idea (where did it come from?) that talking about
your constellation in the wrong way can somehow undo the healing of the
Constellation. I am noticing that I feel that in my body as an actual fear.
Is that idea in the larger field? Where did it come from? Is it true? Is
there evidence for such a thing.
My thoughts right now are that I have direct experience that shows me that
1, 2, and 3 are true, and my conclusions are that talk can get in the way
of the "sacred silence" that emerges from a powerful Constellation, but not
the healing movement itself.
Alison Fornés
*It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that heals.
alisonfornes.com <http://alisonfornes.com>*
Top ^
2eRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 11:30 am (PDT) . Posted by:"jack blackwell" artistryinhealing
For me I think it is important to NOT talk about the constellation too soon
(and much of my reflection comes from my Holotropic Breathwork training and
working with clients in non-ordinary states of consciousness)
I see talking about the constellation too soon after the constellation,
particularly as it concerns analysis and moving from the body to the head. As
clients shift to the mental realm they lose the feeling (in their bodies) of
the constellation. I think this is a great loss. I believe that this felt
sense is super-important to integrate.
It seems to me that one of the biggest reasons we bring a focus client into
the field towards the end of their constellation is so that they can feel and
absorb this energetic imprint. I think it would be a shame if they lost this
felt-imprint too soon.Â
I see no reason not to talk about/share about experiences once their
energetic feeling has subsided as long as it is not picked apart too much
through critical analysis. I also find that many times representatives have
important insights that it can be helpful to share. I offer that the
representatives wait 2 days before sharing with the focus clients.
One of the things I do as I lead workshops to support my focus clients in
having the best integration experience is to have them leave the room for the
following constellation. So that they are not chosen as reps, do not get
involved emotionally or intellectually in the next constellation and so that
they can stay with their experience as long as possible, to write, reflect,
do a mandala, etc. I am offering this more consistently now. (I provide art
supplies)
Again much of my awareness around this comes from my 2-year Holotropic
Breathwork training. I want to give credit to their integration structures.
Much love, Jack
Â
________________________________
Jack Blackwell(720) 458-5363
Connecting Spirit & Psychology ~ Creating profound insights and Healing
Family Constellation Workshops & Trainings, Holotropic Breathwork
Visit us at ArtistryInHealing.com
And like us at:facebook.com/ArtistryinHealing
________________________________
________________________________
From: "Heiki Eesmaa heiki.eesmaa@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Talking about your Constellation:
Superstition?
Â
"Don't talk about your constellation" - it does seem to me a practical
injunction against dissipating what was lived through in an altered state of
consciousness. Specifically, even though the representatives are within the
gross realm, what opens up is the subtle realm (compare assumption of
godforms in ceremonial magic). The subtle realm is worked through with
images, taking them as they are, without verbalizing or mentalizing what they
are. A good summary of this is in John Rowan's book The Transpersonal, p 125
et seq
(http://books.google.ee/books?id=oZBmAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA108&ots=C0iskVPahN&dq=john%20rowan%20subtle&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q=john%20rowan%20subtle&f=false)
There may be a superstition attached to this principle also besides its
practical importance. That can be processed and done away with via favorite
technique of emotional processing.
Interested in discussing this further.
best regards
Heiki
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Alison Fornes maitreya71@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Â
Hi All,
(Note - SKIP TO "Here are my questions" if you just want to skim this email.)
I am recently returned from the 7th North American Systemic Constellations
Intensive, which I had the privilege of directing this year. I feel the
expansiveness in my heart as I think about it! It was wonderful. Thanks to
the faculty: Francesca Mason Boring, Dan Booth Cohen, Ed Lynch and Bill
Mannle! And to all who attended and co-created such a beautiful, sacred
space.
My wondering comes out of a Constellation I asked for in my group on the
last day. It was not a personal Constellation in the usual sense, and it
wasn't clearly resolved because we didn't have time.
A few people from that group have reached out to me, and I noticed my
hesitance in talking about it too much. However, the hesitance feels more
like my response to the "rule" that we shouldn't talk about our
Constellations. And so I'm left wondering about the evidence for that
restriction. Or if perhaps I have been misinterpreting, in which case,
perhaps I'm not the only one?
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS / thoughts:
1. We acknowledge that our day-to-day, personal consciousness is not the
main driver of our lives. Constellations clearly reveal that aspects of our
deeper systemic consciousness manifest through _symptoms_ in our personal
consciousness but are usually not seen for what they are in terms of
ancestral roots of trauma, etc. AND even if we do have a sense of their
ancestral roots, talking about it doesn't seem to resolve it. This is shown
by the experience of very slow process of talk therapy, vs. the much shorter
and incredibly effective Constellation healing. So one might say in this
case: talking has very little effect on the larger field.Â
The one place talk therapy is recognized as effective, though, is when the
talk hits on the deeper roots of an issue. Then we can feel in our bodies,
as in the Focusing work of Eugene Gendlin, that something has resonated and
moved.
2. I also have started engaging in dream work, especially the practice of
"Lightning Dream Work" described by Robert Moss. In this process, once the
dream is presented to a group, participants respond to it with the statement
"If this were my dream..." and they give their thoughts as if it were
LITERALLY their dream. It's quite a special process, as it reveals multiple
facets of what's in the larger field of that dream. The dreamer can then
take what's relevant to them, and is often shown new things they had never
considered. That information, provided not just through the experiencing of
the dream but also through the elucidation of the dream using words, is
quite valuable. Again, it feels like it has the effect of moving something
resonant from the wordless Field into our personal consciousness, which can
be very healing.
The "If this were my dream" has started moving into my Constellation work,
and now when I experience a Constellation that is not mine, there are times
when I talk about it using that language, especially if the seeker is
confused by the Constellation.
Silence vs. Words -Â
3. On the other hand, there is a clear place for silence. The profound,
sacred beauty of a Constellation often creates its own silence, naturally.
It's a silence that emerges from the movement in the Field. You can also
feel how, if you try to tell someone of the experience, there's a way it can
feel like profanity, as in irreverence or desecration. That contrast between
silence and words makes sense to me in the context of Constellation work.Â
4. Finally, there is the way I have interpreted / misinterpreted the idea
"don't talk about your constellation" - this is where the superstition part
comes in. I have had the idea (where did it come from?) that talking about
your constellation in the wrong way can somehow undo the healing of the
Constellation. I am noticing that I feel that in my body as an actual fear.
Is that idea in the larger field? Where did it come from? Is it true? Is
there evidence for such a thing.
My thoughts right now are that I have direct experience that shows me that
1, 2, and 3 are true, and my conclusions are that talk can get in the way of
the "sacred silence" that emerges from a powerful Constellation, but not the
healing movement itself.
Alison Fornés
It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that heals.
alisonfornes.com
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
Top ^
2fRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:25 pm (PDT) . Posted by:"Thomas Bryson"
thomas.bryson@xxxxxxxxx
Dear All,
Whether one speaks about the constellation or not, I think the most important
thing is to be in good contact with the process of the client. Matthias Varga
von Kibéd spoke about how the sides of the brain for language and images are
different. Some clients are very involved in the image, others need more
cognitive understanding to help the mind quiet and be more available for the
images and emotions which come up in a constellation. If the facilitator has
good rapport with the client it will be apparent if talking is appropriate or
not - and when.
All the best,
Thomas Bryson
For me I think it is important to NOT talk about the constellation too soon
(and much of my reflection comes from my Holotropic Breathwork training and
working with clients in non-ordinary states of consciousness)
I see talking about the constellation too soon after the constellation,
particularly as it concerns analysis and moving from the body to the head.
As clients shift to the mental realm they lose the feeling (in their
bodies) of the constellation. I think this is a great loss. I believe that
this felt sense is super-important to integrate.
It seems to me that one of the biggest reasons we bring a focus client into
the field towards the end of their constellation is so that they can feel
and absorb this energetic imprint. I think it would be a shame if they lost
this felt-imprint too soon.
I see no reason not to talk about/share about experiences once their
energetic feeling has subsided as long as it is not picked apart too much
through critical analysis. I also find that many times representatives have
important insights that it can be helpful to share. I offer that the
representatives wait 2 days before sharing with the focus clients.
One of the things I do as I lead workshops to support my focus clients in
having the best integration experience is to have them leave the room for
the following constellation. So that they are not chosen as reps, do not
get involved emotionally or intellectually in the next constellation and so
that they can stay with their experience as long as possible, to write,
reflect, do a mandala, etc. I am offering this more consistently now. (I
provide art supplies)
Again much of my awareness around this comes from my 2-year Holotropic
Breathwork training. I want to give credit to their integration structures.
Much love, Jack
From: "Heiki Eesmaa heiki.eesmaa@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Talking about your Constellation:
Superstition?
"Don't talk about your constellation" - it does seem to me a practical
injunction against dissipating what was lived through in an altered state
of consciousness. Specifically, even though the representatives are within
the gross realm, what opens up is the subtle realm (compare assumption of
godforms in ceremonial magic). The subtle realm is worked through with
images, taking them as they are, without verbalizing or mentalizing what
they are. A good summary of this is in John Rowan's book The Transpersonal,
p 125 et seq
(http://books.google.ee/books?id=oZBmAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA108&ots=C0iskVPahN&dq=john%20rowan%20subtle&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q=john%20rowan%20subtle&f=false)
There may be a superstition attached to this principle also besides its
practical importance. That can be processed and done away with via favorite
technique of emotional processing.
Interested in discussing this further.
best regards
Heiki
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Alison Fornes maitreya71@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi All,
(Note - SKIP TO "Here are my questions" if you just want to skim this
email.)
I am recently returned from the 7th North American Systemic Constellations
Intensive, which I had the privilege of directing this year. I feel the
expansiveness in my heart as I think about it! It was wonderful. Thanks to
the faculty: Francesca Mason Boring, Dan Booth Cohen, Ed Lynch and Bill
Mannle! And to all who attended and co-created such a beautiful, sacred
space.
My wondering comes out of a Constellation I asked for in my group on the
last day. It was not a personal Constellation in the usual sense, and it
wasn't clearly resolved because we didn't have time.
A few people from that group have reached out to me, and I noticed my
hesitance in talking about it too much. However, the hesitance feels more
like my response to the "rule" that we shouldn't talk about our
Constellations. And so I'm left wondering about the evidence for that
restriction. Or if perhaps I have been misinterpreting, in which case,
perhaps I'm not the only one?
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS / thoughts:
1. We acknowledge that our day-to-day, personal consciousness is not the
main driver of our lives. Constellations clearly reveal that aspects of our
deeper systemic consciousness manifest through _symptoms_ in our personal
consciousness but are usually not seen for what they are in terms of
ancestral roots of trauma, etc. AND even if we do have a sense of their
ancestral roots, talking about it doesn't seem to resolve it. This is shown
by the experience of very slow process of talk therapy, vs. the much
shorter and incredibly effective Constellation healing. So one might say in
this case: talking has very little effect on the larger field.
The one place talk therapy is recognized as effective, though, is when the
talk hits on the deeper roots of an issue. Then we can feel in our bodies,
as in the Focusing work of Eugene Gendlin, that something has resonated and
moved.
2. I also have started engaging in dream work, especially the practice of
"Lightning Dream Work" described by Robert Moss. In this process, once the
dream is presented to a group, participants respond to it with the
statement "If this were my dream..." and they give their thoughts as if it
were LITERALLY their dream. It's quite a special process, as it reveals
multiple facets of what's in the larger field of that dream. The dreamer
can then take what's relevant to them, and is often shown new things they
had never considered. That information, provided not just through the
experiencing of the dream but also through the elucidation of the dream
using words, is quite valuable. Again, it feels like it has the effect of
moving something resonant from the wordless Field into our personal
consciousness, which can be very healing.
The "If this were my dream" has started moving into my Constellation work,
and now when I experience a Constellation that is not mine, there are times
when I talk about it using that language, especially if the seeker is
confused by the Constellation.
Silence vs. Words -
3. On the other hand, there is a clear place for silence. The profound,
sacred beauty of a Constellation often creates its own silence, naturally.
It's a silence that emerges from the movement in the Field. You can also
feel how, if you try to tell someone of the experience, there's a way it
can feel like profanity, as in irreverence or desecration. That contrast
between silence and words makes sense to me in the context of Constellation
work.
4. Finally, there is the way I have interpreted / misinterpreted the idea
"don't talk about your constellation" - this is where the superstition part
comes in. I have had the idea (where did it come from?) that talking about
your constellation in the wrong way can somehow undo the healing of the
Constellation. I am noticing that I feel that in my body as an actual fear.
Is that idea in the larger field? Where did it come from? Is it true? Is
there evidence for such a thing.
My thoughts right now are that I have direct experience that shows me that
1, 2, and 3 are true, and my conclusions are that talk can get in the way
of the "sacred silence" that emerges from a powerful Constellation, but not
the healing movement itself.
Alison Fornés
It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that heals.
alisonfornes.com
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
Top ^
2gRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:05 pm (PDT) . Posted by:"kenn day" kenndeigh
Dear Fellow Constellators,
The essence of what I got from my training was that the work we do in
Constellations is at a soul level.
When we talk about it outside the setting of the Field, it brings our
attention from the soul into the mind.
This can bring a halt to the positive movement generated by the
constellation. Why would we want to do that?
All the best,
Kenn Day
www.soulsolutionshome.com
Sent from my iPad
On Jul 31, 2014, at 3:25 PM, "Thomas Bryson tb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxReply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
[ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear All,
Whether one speaks about the constellation or not, I think the most
important thing is to be in good contact with the process of the client.
Matthias Varga von Kibéd spoke about how the sides of the brain for
language and images are different. Some clients are very involved in the
image, others need more cognitive understanding to help the mind quiet and
be more available for the images and emotions which come up in a
constellation. If the facilitator has good rapport with the client it will
be apparent if talking is appropriate or not - and when.
All the best,
Thomas Bryson
For me I think it is important to NOT talk about the constellation too
soon (and much of my reflection comes from my Holotropic Breathwork
training and working with clients in non-ordinary states of consciousness)
I see talking about the constellation too soon after the constellation,
particularly as it concerns analysis and moving from the body to the head.
As clients shift to the mental realm they lose the feeling (in their
bodies) of the constellation. I think this is a great loss. I believe that
this felt sense is super-important to integrate.
It seems to me that one of the biggest reasons we bring a focus client
into the field towards the end of their constellation is so that they can
feel and absorb this energetic imprint. I think it would be a shame if
they lost this felt-imprint too soon.
I see no reason not to talk about/share about experiences once their
energetic feeling has subsided as long as it is not picked apart too much
through critical analysis. I also find that many times representatives
have important insights that it can be helpful to share. I offer that the
representatives wait 2 days before sharing with the focus clients.
One of the things I do as I lead workshops to support my focus clients in
having the best integration experience is to have them leave the room for
the following constellation. So that they are not chosen as reps, do not
get involved emotionally or intellectually in the next constellation and
so that they can stay with their experience as long as possible, to write,
reflect, do a mandala, etc. I am offering this more consistently now. (I
provide art supplies)
Again much of my awareness around this comes from my 2-year Holotropic
Breathwork training. I want to give credit to their integration structures.
Much love, Jack
From: "Heiki Eesmaa heiki.eesmaa@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2014 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Talking about your Constellation:
Superstition?
"Don't talk about your constellation" - it does seem to me a practical
injunction against dissipating what was lived through in an altered state
of consciousness. Specifically, even though the representatives are within
the gross realm, what opens up is the subtle realm (compare assumption of
godforms in ceremonial magic). The subtle realm is worked through with
images, taking them as they are, without verbalizing or mentalizing what
they are. A good summary of this is in John Rowan's book The
Transpersonal, p 125 et seq
(http://books.google.ee/books?id=oZBmAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA108&ots=C0iskVPahN&dq=john%20rowan%20subtle&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q=john%20rowan%20subtle&f=false)
There may be a superstition attached to this principle also besides its
practical importance. That can be processed and done away with via
favorite technique of emotional processing.
Interested in discussing this further.
best regards
Heiki
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Alison Fornes maitreya71@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi All,
(Note - SKIP TO "Here are my questions" if you just want to skim this
email.)
I am recently returned from the 7th North American Systemic Constellations
Intensive, which I had the privilege of directing this year. I feel the
expansiveness in my heart as I think about it! It was wonderful. Thanks to
the faculty: Francesca Mason Boring, Dan Booth Cohen, Ed Lynch and Bill
Mannle! And to all who attended and co-created such a beautiful, sacred
space.
My wondering comes out of a Constellation I asked for in my group on the
last day. It was not a personal Constellation in the usual sense, and it
wasn't clearly resolved because we didn't have time.
A few people from that group have reached out to me, and I noticed my
hesitance in talking about it too much. However, the hesitance feels more
like my response to the "rule" that we shouldn't talk about our
Constellations. And so I'm left wondering about the evidence for that
restriction. Or if perhaps I have been misinterpreting, in which case,
perhaps I'm not the only one?
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS / thoughts:
1. We acknowledge that our day-to-day, personal consciousness is not the
main driver of our lives. Constellations clearly reveal that aspects of
our deeper systemic consciousness manifest through _symptoms_ in our
personal consciousness but are usually not seen for what they are in terms
of ancestral roots of trauma, etc. AND even if we do have a sense of their
ancestral roots, talking about it doesn't seem to resolve it. This is
shown by the experience of very slow process of talk therapy, vs. the much
shorter and incredibly effective Constellation healing. So one might say
in this case: talking has very little effect on the larger field.
The one place talk therapy is recognized as effective, though, is when the
talk hits on the deeper roots of an issue. Then we can feel in our bodies,
as in the Focusing work of Eugene Gendlin, that something has resonated
and moved.
2. I also have started engaging in dream work, especially the practice of
"Lightning Dream Work" described by Robert Moss. In this process, once the
dream is presented to a group, participants respond to it with the
statement "If this were my dream..." and they give their thoughts as if it
were LITERALLY their dream. It's quite a special process, as it reveals
multiple facets of what's in the larger field of that dream. The dreamer
can then take what's relevant to them, and is often shown new things they
had never considered. That information, provided not just through the
experiencing of the dream but also through the elucidation of the dream
using words, is quite valuable. Again, it feels like it has the effect of
moving something resonant from the wordless Field into our personal
consciousness, which can be very healing.
The "If this were my dream" has started moving into my Constellation work,
and now when I experience a Constellation that is not mine, there are
times when I talk about it using that language, especially if the seeker
is confused by the Constellation.
Silence vs. Words -
3. On the other hand, there is a clear place for silence. The profound,
sacred beauty of a Constellation often creates its own silence, naturally.
It's a silence that emerges from the movement in the Field. You can also
feel how, if you try to tell someone of the experience, there's a way it
can feel like profanity, as in irreverence or desecration. That contrast
between silence and words makes sense to me in the context of
Constellation work.
4. Finally, there is the way I have interpreted / misinterpreted the idea
"don't talk about your constellation" - this is where the superstition
part comes in. I have had the idea (where did it come from?) that talking
about your constellation in the wrong way can somehow undo the healing of
the Constellation. I am noticing that I feel that in my body as an actual
fear. Is that idea in the larger field? Where did it come from? Is it
true? Is there evidence for such a thing.
My thoughts right now are that I have direct experience that shows me that
1, 2, and 3 are true, and my conclusions are that talk can get in the way
of the "sacred silence" that emerges from a powerful Constellation, but
not the healing movement itself.
Alison Fornés
It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that heals.
alisonfornes.com
Top ^
2hRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:05 pm (PDT) . Posted by:"Edward Phillips"
I consider how simple our constellation gatherings are in kerry south west
of ireland. ALL participants are introduced to the work, any intuited
insecurities in the room are calmed and honoured threw the skill of the
facilitator, there is a brief simple meditation breath focused. The
question who feels ready to work is put out to the gathered participant's,
And as soon as a willing member of the group takes up the seat with the
facilitator, the first constellations gives leverage to the opening up of
all the other individual constellations. A momentum grows as each person,
internally directed, proceeds to take up the request to work..Every
movement draws its own conclusion appropriately.
It is explained after each piece of work to allow the, focused on
individual time to ruminate with what has been uncovered. Should any
questions be arising they are taken up with the facilitator. It always
interests me how no prior knowledge of methods or practices of any kind are
nesscary! The most ordinary persons experience their extraordinary nature
of who we are, and begin to SEE clearly how harmony can be restored in the
larger system of our affairs.
It appears to me that what is fundamentally required is the known
experience of the facilitators constant engagement with veteran
practioniers of the the knowing field.
Kind regards
Edward phillips
On 31 Jul 2014 20:25, "Thomas Bryson tb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
Dear All,
Whether one speaks about the constellation or not, I think the most
important thing is to be in good contact with the process of the client.
Matthias Varga von Kibéd spoke about how the sides of the brain for
language and images are different. Some clients are very involved in the
image, others need more cognitive understanding to help the mind quiet and
be more available for the images and emotions which come up in a
constellation. If the facilitator has good rapport with the client it will
be apparent if talking is appropriate or not - and when.
All the best,
Thomas Bryson
For me I think it is important to NOT talk about the constellation too
soon (and much of my reflection comes from my Holotropic Breathwork
training and working with clients in non-ordinary states of consciousness)
I see talking about the constellation too soon after the constellation,
particularly as it concerns analysis and moving from the body to the head.
As clients shift to the mental realm they lose the feeling (in their
bodies) of the constellation. I think this is a great loss. I believe that
this felt sense is super-important to integrate.
It seems to me that one of the biggest reasons we bring a focus client
into the field towards the end of their constellation is so that they can
feel and absorb this energetic imprint. I think it would be a shame if they
lost this felt-imprint too soon.
I see no reason not to talk about/share about experiences once their
energetic feeling has subsided as long as it is not picked apart too much
through critical analysis. I also find that many times representatives have
important insights that it can be helpful to share. I offer that the
representatives wait 2 days before sharing with the focus clients.
One of the things I do as I lead workshops to support my focus clients in
having the best integration experience is to have them leave the room for
the following constellation. So that they are not chosen as reps, do not
get involved emotionally or intellectually in the next constellation and so
that they can stay with their experience as long as possible, to write,
reflect, do a mandala, etc. I am offering this more consistently now. (I
provide art supplies)
Again much of my awareness around this comes from my 2-year Holotropic
Breathwork training. I want to give credit to their integration structures.
Much love, Jack
------------------------------
------------------------------
------------------------------
*From:* "Heiki Eesmaa heiki.eesmaa@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*To:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Sent:* Thursday, July 31, 2014 12:03 PM
*Subject:* Re: [ConstellationTalk] Talking about your Constellation:
Superstition?
"Don't talk about your constellation" - it does seem to me a practical
injunction against dissipating what was lived through in an altered state
of consciousness. Specifically, even though the representatives are within
the gross realm, what opens up is the subtle realm (compare assumption of
godforms in ceremonial magic). The subtle realm is worked through with
images, taking them as they are, without verbalizing or mentalizing what
they are. A good summary of this is in John Rowan's book The Transpersonal,
p 125 et seq (
http://books.google.ee/books?id=oZBmAgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA108&ots=C0iskVPahN&dq=john%20rowan%20subtle&pg=PA125#v=onepage&q=john%20rowan%20subtle&f=false
)
There may be a superstition attached to this principle also besides its
practical importance. That can be processed and done away with via favorite
technique of emotional processing.
Interested in discussing this further.
best regards
Heiki
On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Alison Fornes maitreya71@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi All,
(Note - SKIP TO "Here are my questions" if you just want to skim this
email.)
I am recently returned from the 7th North American Systemic Constellations
Intensive, which I had the privilege of directing this year. I feel the
expansiveness in my heart as I think about it! It was wonderful. Thanks to
the faculty: Francesca Mason Boring, Dan Booth Cohen, Ed Lynch and Bill
Mannle! And to all who attended and co-created such a beautiful, sacred
space.
My wondering comes out of a Constellation I asked for in my group on the
last day. It was not a personal Constellation in the usual sense, and it
wasn't clearly resolved because we didn't have time.
A few people from that group have reached out to me, and I noticed my
hesitance in talking about it too much. However, the hesitance feels more
like my response to the "rule" that we shouldn't talk about our
Constellations. And so I'm left wondering about the evidence for that
restriction. Or if perhaps I have been misinterpreting, in which case,
perhaps I'm not the only one?
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS / thoughts:
1. We acknowledge that our day-to-day, personal consciousness is not the
main driver of our lives. Constellations clearly reveal that aspects of our
deeper systemic consciousness manifest through _symptoms_ in our personal
consciousness but are usually not seen for what they are in terms of
ancestral roots of trauma, etc. AND even if we do have a sense of their
ancestral roots, talking about it doesn't seem to resolve it. This is shown
by the experience of very slow process of talk therapy, vs. the much
shorter and incredibly effective Constellation healing. So one might say in
this case: talking has very little effect on the larger field.
The one place talk therapy is recognized as effective, though, is when the
talk hits on the deeper roots of an issue. Then we can feel in our bodies,
as in the Focusing work of Eugene Gendlin, that something has resonated and
moved.
2. I also have started engaging in dream work, especially the practice of
"Lightning Dream Work" described by Robert Moss. In this process, once the
dream is presented to a group, participants respond to it with the
statement "If this were my dream..." and they give their thoughts as if it
were LITERALLY their dream. It's quite a special process, as it reveals
multiple facets of what's in the larger field of that dream. The dreamer
can then take what's relevant to them, and is often shown new things they
had never considered. That information, provided not just through the
experiencing of the dream but also through the elucidation of the dream
using words, is quite valuable. Again, it feels like it has the effect of
moving something resonant from the wordless Field into our personal
consciousness, which can be very healing.
The "If this were my dream" has started moving into my Constellation work,
and now when I experience a Constellation that is not mine, there are times
when I talk about it using that language, especially if the seeker is
confused by the Constellation.
Silence vs. Words -
3. On the other hand, there is a clear place for silence. The profound,
sacred beauty of a Constellation often creates its own silence, naturally.
It's a silence that emerges from the movement in the Field. You can also
feel how, if you try to tell someone of the experience, there's a way it
can feel like profanity, as in irreverence or desecration. That contrast
between silence and words makes sense to me in the context of Constellation
work.
4. Finally, there is the way I have interpreted / misinterpreted the idea
"don't talk about your constellation" - this is where the superstition part
comes in. I have had the idea (where did it come from?) that talking about
your constellation in the wrong way can somehow undo the healing of the
Constellation. I am noticing that I feel that in my body as an actual fear.
Is that idea in the larger field? Where did it come from? Is it true? Is
there evidence for such a thing.
My thoughts right now are that I have direct experience that shows me that
1, 2, and 3 are true, and my conclusions are that talk can get in the way
of the "sacred silence" that emerges from a powerful Constellation, but not
the healing movement itself.
Alison Fornés
*It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that
heals.alisonfornes.com <http://alisonfornes.com/>*
Top ^
2iRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 3:08 pm (PDT) . Posted by:"Katia del Rivero Vargas"
In our trainings we donâ•˙t follow the ╲rule╡.
I learned with the clients that many of them need something different:
Some of them need to talk, is their way to integrate the work.
Some of them need to hear, is their way to integrate the work.
Some of them need to be in silence, is their way to integrate the work.
Then we ask them╜ ¿What do you need? ¿It is ok if we process the
experience with the rest of the group and you stay? ¿Or you prefer to go and
maintain the experience? ¿What you need, ask your heart?
Usually, they really know what they need. Some of them prefer to go, other to
stay the whole reflection, other only part.
In my own perspective, to respect and trust that the clients have their own
way to integrate and follow this way is the best option.
Katia del Rivero Vargas
VisiÓn Sistémica
Directora General
Oficina (52 55) 5544 8799 / Celular (044 55) 5454 5438
<mailto:kdelrivero@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> katia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx / skype:
kdelrivero
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Le informamos que sus datos personales pueden ser obtenidos mediante medios
electrÓnicos remotos como correo electrÓnico y/o vÖa telefÓnica, sus
datos serán para las finalidades previstas en el aviso de privacidad, las
cuales incluyen facturaciÓn y obligaciones contraÖdas con nuestros clientes
del Instituto de Pensamiento Sistémico, con domicilio en Sur 67-A número
142, Colonia el Prado, México, D.F. Para mayor informaciÓn acerca del
tratamiento y derechos, usted puede acceder al aviso de privacidad integral
en las instalaciones de la empresa y/o solicitarlo vÖa electrÓnica a la
direcciÓn <mailto:info@xxxxxxxxxx> info@xxxxxxxxxx además mediante este
mismo medio puede manifestar su negativa al uso de sus datos personales
dentro de los plazos establecidos en el Reglamento de la Ley Federal de
ProtecciÓn de Datos en PosesiÓn de los Particulares o limitar el uso o
divulgaciÓn de sus datos, indicando mediante correo electrÓnico que desea
dejar de recibir correos electrÓnicos promocionales.
De: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] ;
Enviado el: miércoles, 30 de julio de 2014 04:28 a.m.
Para: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Asunto: [ConstellationTalk] Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Hi All,
(Note - SKIP TO "Here are my questions" if you just want to skim this email.)
I am recently returned from the 7th North American Systemic Constellations
Intensive, which I had the privilege of directing this year. I feel the
expansiveness in my heart as I think about it! It was wonderful. Thanks to
the faculty: Francesca Mason Boring, Dan Booth Cohen, Ed Lynch and Bill
Mannle! And to all who attended and co-created such a beautiful, sacred space.
My wondering comes out of a Constellation I asked for in my group on the last
day. It was not a personal Constellation in the usual sense, and it wasn't
clearly resolved because we didn't have time.
A few people from that group have reached out to me, and I noticed my
hesitance in talking about it too much. However, the hesitance feels more
like my response to the "rule" that we shouldn't talk about our
Constellations. And so I'm left wondering about the evidence for that
restriction. Or if perhaps I have been misinterpreting, in which case,
perhaps I'm not the only one?
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS / thoughts:
1. We acknowledge that our day-to-day, personal consciousness is not the main
driver of our lives. Constellations clearly reveal that aspects of our deeper
systemic consciousness manifest through _symptoms_ in our personal
consciousness but are usually not seen for what they are in terms of
ancestral roots of trauma, etc. AND even if we do have a sense of their
ancestral roots, talking about it doesn't seem to resolve it. This is shown
by the experience of very slow process of talk therapy, vs. the much shorter
and incredibly effective Constellation healing. So one might say in this
case: talking has very little effect on the larger field.
The one place talk therapy is recognized as effective, though, is when the
talk hits on the deeper roots of an issue. Then we can feel in our bodies, as
in the Focusing work of Eugene Gendlin, that something has resonated and
moved.
2. I also have started engaging in dream work, especially the practice of
"Lightning Dream Work" described by Robert Moss. In this process, once the
dream is presented to a group, participants respond to it with the statement
"If this were my dream..." and they give their thoughts as if it were
LITERALLY their dream. It's quite a special process, as it reveals multiple
facets of what's in the larger field of that dream. The dreamer can then take
what's relevant to them, and is often shown new things they had never
considered. That information, provided not just through the experiencing of
the dream but also through the elucidation of the dream using words, is quite
valuable. Again, it feels like it has the effect of moving something resonant
from the wordless Field into our personal consciousness, which can be very
healing.
The "If this were my dream" has started moving into my Constellation work,
and now when I experience a Constellation that is not mine, there are times
when I talk about it using that language, especially if the seeker is
confused by the Constellation.
Silence vs. Words -
3. On the other hand, there is a clear place for silence. The profound,
sacred beauty of a Constellation often creates its own silence, naturally.
It's a silence that emerges from the movement in the Field. You can also feel
how, if you try to tell someone of the experience, there's a way it can feel
like profanity, as in irreverence or desecration. That contrast between
silence and words makes sense to me in the context of Constellation work.
4. Finally, there is the way I have interpreted / misinterpreted the idea
"don't talk about your constellation" - this is where the superstition part
comes in. I have had the idea (where did it come from?) that talking about
your constellation in the wrong way can somehow undo the healing of the
Constellation. I am noticing that I feel that in my body as an actual fear.
Is that idea in the larger field? Where did it come from? Is it true? Is
there evidence for such a thing.
My thoughts right now are that I have direct experience that shows me that 1,
2, and 3 are true, and my conclusions are that talk can get in the way of the
"sacred silence" that emerges from a powerful Constellation, but not the
healing movement itself.
Alison Fornés
It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that heals.
<http://alisonfornes.com> alisonfornes.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
Top ^
2jRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:56 pm (PDT) . Posted by:"Julio PrÖncipe"
Thanks Katia, I agree with you and reading your post, clarifies the process
to me.
When I shared in this post I felt a little bit weird, because I let clients
talk -specially in organizational process. (I just shared how do I explain
the "not-to-talk-rule")
Still learning and happy for that,
Julio
2014-07-31 17:08 GMT-05:00 'Katia del Rivero Vargas'
katia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
In our trainings we donâ•˙t follow the ╲rule╡.
I learned with the clients that many of them need something different:
Some of them need to talk, is their way to integrate the work.
Some of them need to hear, is their way to integrate the work.
Some of them need to be in silence, is their way to integrate the work.
Then we ask them╜ ¿What do you need? ¿It is ok if we process the
experience with the rest of the group and you stay? ¿Or you prefer to go
and maintain the experience? ¿What you need, ask your heart?
Usually, they really know what they need. Some of them prefer to go, other
to stay the whole reflection, other only part.
In my own perspective, to respect and trust that the clients have their
own way to integrate and follow this way is the best option.
Katia del Rivero Vargas
VisiÓn Sistémica
Directora General
Oficina (52 55) 5544 8799 / Celular (044 55) 5454 5438
<mailto:kdelrivero@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> katia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx /
skype: kdelrivero
SÖguenos en:
Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/VisionSistemica>
https://www.facebook.com/VisionSistemica
Twitter: <https://twitter.com/VisionSistemica>
https://twitter.com/VisionSistemica
Linkedin: <
http://www.linkedin.com/company/visi-n-sist-mica?trk=biz-companies-cym>
http://www.linkedin.com/company/visi-n-sist-mica?trk=biz-companies-cym
PPor favor, Ayúdenos a Proteger & Sanar Nuestro Medio Ambiente y sus
Recursos Naturales mediante el Reciclado y ReducciÓn del Uso
Aviso de Privacidad Simplificado
Le informamos que sus datos personales pueden ser obtenidos mediante
medios electrÓnicos remotos como correo electrÓnico y/o vÖa telefÓnica,
sus
datos serán para las finalidades previstas en el aviso de privacidad, las
cuales incluyen facturaciÓn y obligaciones contraÖdas con nuestros
clientes
del Instituto de Pensamiento Sistémico, con domicilio en Sur 67-A número
142, Colonia el Prado, México, D.F. Para mayor informaciÓn acerca del
tratamiento y derechos, usted puede acceder al aviso de privacidad integral
en las instalaciones de la empresa y/o solicitarlo vÖa electrÓnica a la
direcciÓn <mailto:info@xxxxxxxxxx> info@xxxxxxxxxx además mediante este
mismo medio puede manifestar su negativa al uso de sus datos personales
dentro de los plazos establecidos en el Reglamento de la Ley Federal de
ProtecciÓn de Datos en PosesiÓn de los Particulares o limitar el uso o
divulgaciÓn de sus datos, indicando mediante correo electrÓnico que desea
dejar de recibir correos electrÓnicos promocionales.
De: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Enviado el: miércoles, 30 de julio de 2014 04:28 a.m.
Para: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Asunto: [ConstellationTalk] Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Hi All,
(Note - SKIP TO "Here are my questions" if you just want to skim this
email.)
I am recently returned from the 7th North American Systemic Constellations
Intensive, which I had the privilege of directing this year. I feel the
expansiveness in my heart as I think about it! It was wonderful. Thanks to
the faculty: Francesca Mason Boring, Dan Booth Cohen, Ed Lynch and Bill
Mannle! And to all who attended and co-created such a beautiful, sacred
space.
My wondering comes out of a Constellation I asked for in my group on the
last day. It was not a personal Constellation in the usual sense, and it
wasn't clearly resolved because we didn't have time.
A few people from that group have reached out to me, and I noticed my
hesitance in talking about it too much. However, the hesitance feels more
like my response to the "rule" that we shouldn't talk about our
Constellations. And so I'm left wondering about the evidence for that
restriction. Or if perhaps I have been misinterpreting, in which case,
perhaps I'm not the only one?
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS / thoughts:
1. We acknowledge that our day-to-day, personal consciousness is not the
main driver of our lives. Constellations clearly reveal that aspects of our
deeper systemic consciousness manifest through _symptoms_ in our personal
consciousness but are usually not seen for what they are in terms of
ancestral roots of trauma, etc. AND even if we do have a sense of their
ancestral roots, talking about it doesn't seem to resolve it. This is shown
by the experience of very slow process of talk therapy, vs. the much
shorter and incredibly effective Constellation healing. So one might say in
this case: talking has very little effect on the larger field.
The one place talk therapy is recognized as effective, though, is when the
talk hits on the deeper roots of an issue. Then we can feel in our bodies,
as in the Focusing work of Eugene Gendlin, that something has resonated and
moved.
2. I also have started engaging in dream work, especially the practice of
"Lightning Dream Work" described by Robert Moss. In this process, once the
dream is presented to a group, participants respond to it with the
statement "If this were my dream..." and they give their thoughts as if it
were LITERALLY their dream. It's quite a special process, as it reveals
multiple facets of what's in the larger field of that dream. The dreamer
can then take what's relevant to them, and is often shown new things they
had never considered. That information, provided not just through the
experiencing of the dream but also through the elucidation of the dream
using words, is quite valuable. Again, it feels like it has the effect of
moving something resonant from the wordless Field into our personal
consciousness, which can be very healing.
The "If this were my dream" has started moving into my Constellation work,
and now when I experience a Constellation that is not mine, there are times
when I talk about it using that language, especially if the seeker is
confused by the Constellation.
Silence vs. Words -
3. On the other hand, there is a clear place for silence. The profound,
sacred beauty of a Constellation often creates its own silence, naturally.
It's a silence that emerges from the movement in the Field. You can also
feel how, if you try to tell someone of the experience, there's a way it
can feel like profanity, as in irreverence or desecration. That contrast
between silence and words makes sense to me in the context of Constellation
work.
4. Finally, there is the way I have interpreted / misinterpreted the idea
"don't talk about your constellation" - this is where the superstition part
comes in. I have had the idea (where did it come from?) that talking about
your constellation in the wrong way can somehow undo the healing of the
Constellation. I am noticing that I feel that in my body as an actual fear.
Is that idea in the larger field? Where did it come from? Is it true? Is
there evidence for such a thing.
My thoughts right now are that I have direct experience that shows me that
1, 2, and 3 are true, and my conclusions are that talk can get in the way
of the "sacred silence" that emerges from a powerful Constellation, but not
the healing movement itself.
Alison Fornés
It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that heals.
<http://alisonfornes.com> alisonfornes.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Top ^
2kRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:42 pm (PDT) . Posted by:"Heiki Eesmaa" heiki_e
So for those who don't follow the "don't talk about it" rule, how are the
results? Is there correlation between those who are eager to discuss their
constellation and those whose constellation seems to not resolve their
issue?
As a matter of another principle, I wonder if clients really really can
decide for themselves when to discuss and when not, as Katia del Rivero
Vargas wrote. If even we don't know for sure what effects such discussion
has for them, I wonder about the ethics of allowing the client to decide
without sufficient understanding.
best regards
Heiki Eesmaa
On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 4:56 AM, Julio PrÖncipe principejulio@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
Thanks Katia, I agree with you and reading your post, clarifies the
process to me.
When I shared in this post I felt a little bit weird, because I let
clients talk -specially in organizational process. (I just shared how do I
explain the "not-to-talk-rule")
Still learning and happy for that,
Julio
2014-07-31 17:08 GMT-05:00 'Katia del Rivero Vargas'
katia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
In our trainings we don't follow the "rule".
I learned with the clients that many of them need something different:
Some of them need to talk, is their way to integrate the work.
Some of them need to hear, is their way to integrate the work.
Some of them need to be in silence, is their way to integrate the work.
Then we ask them... ¿What do you need? ¿It is ok if we process the
experience with the rest of the group and you stay? ¿Or you prefer to go
and maintain the experience? ¿What you need, ask your heart?
Usually, they really know what they need. Some of them prefer to go,
other to stay the whole reflection, other only part.
In my own perspective, to respect and trust that the clients have their
own way to integrate and follow this way is the best option.
Katia del Rivero Vargas
VisiÓn Sistémica
Directora General
Oficina (52 55) 5544 8799 / Celular (044 55) 5454 5438
<mailto:kdelrivero@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> katia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx /
skype: kdelrivero
SÖguenos en:
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medios electrÓnicos remotos como correo electrÓnico y/o vÖa
telefÓnica, sus
datos serán para las finalidades previstas en el aviso de privacidad, las
cuales incluyen facturaciÓn y obligaciones contraÖdas con nuestros
clientes
del Instituto de Pensamiento Sistémico, con domicilio en Sur 67-A número
142, Colonia el Prado, México, D.F. Para mayor informaciÓn acerca del
tratamiento y derechos, usted puede acceder al aviso de privacidad integral
en las instalaciones de la empresa y/o solicitarlo vÖa electrÓnica a la
direcciÓn <mailto:info@xxxxxxxxxx> info@xxxxxxxxxx además mediante este
mismo medio puede manifestar su negativa al uso de sus datos personales
dentro de los plazos establecidos en el Reglamento de la Ley Federal de
ProtecciÓn de Datos en PosesiÓn de los Particulares o limitar el uso o
divulgaciÓn de sus datos, indicando mediante correo electrÓnico que desea
dejar de recibir correos electrÓnicos promocionales.
De: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Enviado el: miércoles, 30 de julio de 2014 04:28 a.m.
Para: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Asunto: [ConstellationTalk] Talking about your Constellation:
Superstition?
Hi All,
(Note - SKIP TO "Here are my questions" if you just want to skim this
email.)
I am recently returned from the 7th North American Systemic
Constellations Intensive, which I had the privilege of directing this year.
I feel the expansiveness in my heart as I think about it! It was wonderful.
Thanks to the faculty: Francesca Mason Boring, Dan Booth Cohen, Ed Lynch
and Bill Mannle! And to all who attended and co-created such a beautiful,
sacred space.
My wondering comes out of a Constellation I asked for in my group on the
last day. It was not a personal Constellation in the usual sense, and it
wasn't clearly resolved because we didn't have time.
A few people from that group have reached out to me, and I noticed my
hesitance in talking about it too much. However, the hesitance feels more
like my response to the "rule" that we shouldn't talk about our
Constellations. And so I'm left wondering about the evidence for that
restriction. Or if perhaps I have been misinterpreting, in which case,
perhaps I'm not the only one?
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS / thoughts:
1. We acknowledge that our day-to-day, personal consciousness is not the
main driver of our lives. Constellations clearly reveal that aspects of our
deeper systemic consciousness manifest through _symptoms_ in our personal
consciousness but are usually not seen for what they are in terms of
ancestral roots of trauma, etc. AND even if we do have a sense of their
ancestral roots, talking about it doesn't seem to resolve it. This is shown
by the experience of very slow process of talk therapy, vs. the much
shorter and incredibly effective Constellation healing. So one might say in
this case: talking has very little effect on the larger field.
The one place talk therapy is recognized as effective, though, is when
the talk hits on the deeper roots of an issue. Then we can feel in our
bodies, as in the Focusing work of Eugene Gendlin, that something has
resonated and moved.
2. I also have started engaging in dream work, especially the practice of
"Lightning Dream Work" described by Robert Moss. In this process, once the
dream is presented to a group, participants respond to it with the
statement "If this were my dream..." and they give their thoughts as if it
were LITERALLY their dream. It's quite a special process, as it reveals
multiple facets of what's in the larger field of that dream. The dreamer
can then take what's relevant to them, and is often shown new things they
had never considered. That information, provided not just through the
experiencing of the dream but also through the elucidation of the dream
using words, is quite valuable. Again, it feels like it has the effect of
moving something resonant from the wordless Field into our personal
consciousness, which can be very healing.
The "If this were my dream" has started moving into my Constellation
work, and now when I experience a Constellation that is not mine, there are
times when I talk about it using that language, especially if the seeker is
confused by the Constellation.
Silence vs. Words -
3. On the other hand, there is a clear place for silence. The profound,
sacred beauty of a Constellation often creates its own silence, naturally.
It's a silence that emerges from the movement in the Field. You can also
feel how, if you try to tell someone of the experience, there's a way it
can feel like profanity, as in irreverence or desecration. That contrast
between silence and words makes sense to me in the context of Constellation
work.
4. Finally, there is the way I have interpreted / misinterpreted the idea
"don't talk about your constellation" - this is where the superstition part
comes in. I have had the idea (where did it come from?) that talking about
your constellation in the wrong way can somehow undo the healing of the
Constellation. I am noticing that I feel that in my body as an actual fear.
Is that idea in the larger field? Where did it come from? Is it true? Is
there evidence for such a thing.
My thoughts right now are that I have direct experience that shows me
that 1, 2, and 3 are true, and my conclusions are that talk can get in the
way of the "sacred silence" that emerges from a powerful Constellation, but
not the healing movement itself.
Alison Fornés
It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that heals.
<http://alisonfornes.com> alisonfornes.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Top ^
2lRe: Talking about your Constellation: Superstition?
Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:04 pm (PDT) . Posted by:"Julio PrÖncipe"
In my case, when I work with organisations,,talk about along with the team
brings a wide space and allow new options to handle how to build a new kind
of results in "this" reality. With issues like trauma or just family
relationships I prefer to ask the client if she/he want to share his/her
experience and some insights (not the process), but many times I suggest
not to talk also. I want to add that I work with family constellations
almost exclusively in individual settings (organisational usually in
workshops).
However, I use to receive positive feedback both in family as with
organisational cases; so I cannot say when it's better or is not; I trust
in what I feel in the moment with my client (a new team, a confused CEO, a
concerned mother, etc).
Thank you Heiki for your question, I'll pay atention looking for
differences and new learnings.
Julio
El jul 31, 2014 10:42 PM, "Heiki Eesmaa heiki.eesmaa@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> escribiÓ:
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (20) .
So for those who don't follow the "don't talk about it" rule, how are the
results? Is there correlation between those who are eager to discuss their
constellation and those whose constellation seems to not resolve their
issue?
As a matter of another principle, I wonder if clients really really can
decide for themselves when to discuss and when not, as Katia del Rivero
Vargas wrote. If even we don't know for sure what effects such discussion
has for them, I wonder about the ethics of allowing the client to decide
without sufficient understanding.
best regards
Heiki Eesmaa
On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 4:56 AM, Julio PrÖncipe principejulio@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Katia, I agree with you and reading your post, clarifies the
process to me.
When I shared in this post I felt a little bit weird, because I let
clients talk -specially in organizational process. (I just shared how do I
explain the "not-to-talk-rule")
Still learning and happy for that,
Julio
2014-07-31 17:08 GMT-05:00 'Katia del Rivero Vargas'
katia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
In our trainings we donâ•˙t follow the ╲rule╡.
I learned with the clients that many of them need something different:
Some of them need to talk, is their way to integrate the work.
Some of them need to hear, is their way to integrate the work.
Some of them need to be in silence, is their way to integrate the work.
Then we ask them╜ ¿What do you need? ¿It is ok if we process the
experience with the rest of the group and you stay? ¿Or you prefer to go
and maintain the experience? ¿What you need, ask your heart?
Usually, they really know what they need. Some of them prefer to go,
other to stay the whole reflection, other only part.
In my own perspective, to respect and trust that the clients have their
own way to integrate and follow this way is the best option.
Katia del Rivero Vargas
VisiÓn Sistémica
Directora General
Oficina (52 55) 5544 8799 / Celular (044 55) 5454 5438
<mailto:kdelrivero@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> katia@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx /
skype: kdelrivero
SÖguenos en:
Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/VisionSistemica>
https://www.facebook.com/VisionSistemica
Twitter: <https://twitter.com/VisionSistemica>
https://twitter.com/VisionSistemica
Linkedin: <
http://www.linkedin.com/company/visi-n-sist-mica?trk=biz-companies-cym>
http://www.linkedin.com/company/visi-n-sist-mica?trk=biz-companies-cym
PPor favor, Ayúdenos a Proteger & Sanar Nuestro Medio Ambiente y sus
Recursos Naturales mediante el Reciclado y ReducciÓn del Uso
Aviso de Privacidad Simplificado
Le informamos que sus datos personales pueden ser obtenidos mediante
medios electrÓnicos remotos como correo electrÓnico y/o vÖa
telefÓnica, sus
datos serán para las finalidades previstas en el aviso de privacidad, las
cuales incluyen facturaciÓn y obligaciones contraÖdas con nuestros
clientes
del Instituto de Pensamiento Sistémico, con domicilio en Sur 67-A número
142, Colonia el Prado, México, D.F. Para mayor informaciÓn acerca del
tratamiento y derechos, usted puede acceder al aviso de privacidad
integral
en las instalaciones de la empresa y/o solicitarlo vÖa electrÓnica a la
direcciÓn <mailto:info@xxxxxxxxxx> info@xxxxxxxxxx además mediante este
mismo medio puede manifestar su negativa al uso de sus datos personales
dentro de los plazos establecidos en el Reglamento de la Ley Federal de
ProtecciÓn de Datos en PosesiÓn de los Particulares o limitar el uso o
divulgaciÓn de sus datos, indicando mediante correo electrÓnico que
desea
dejar de recibir correos electrÓnicos promocionales.
De: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Enviado el: miércoles, 30 de julio de 2014 04:28 a.m.
Para: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Asunto: [ConstellationTalk] Talking about your Constellation:
Superstition?
Hi All,
(Note - SKIP TO "Here are my questions" if you just want to skim this
email.)
I am recently returned from the 7th North American Systemic
Constellations Intensive, which I had the privilege of directing this
year.
I feel the expansiveness in my heart as I think about it! It was
wonderful.
Thanks to the faculty: Francesca Mason Boring, Dan Booth Cohen, Ed Lynch
and Bill Mannle! And to all who attended and co-created such a beautiful,
sacred space.
My wondering comes out of a Constellation I asked for in my group on the
last day. It was not a personal Constellation in the usual sense, and it
wasn't clearly resolved because we didn't have time.
A few people from that group have reached out to me, and I noticed my
hesitance in talking about it too much. However, the hesitance feels more
like my response to the "rule" that we shouldn't talk about our
Constellations. And so I'm left wondering about the evidence for that
restriction. Or if perhaps I have been misinterpreting, in which case,
perhaps I'm not the only one?
HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS / thoughts:
1. We acknowledge that our day-to-day, personal consciousness is not the
main driver of our lives. Constellations clearly reveal that aspects of
our
deeper systemic consciousness manifest through _symptoms_ in our personal
consciousness but are usually not seen for what they are in terms of
ancestral roots of trauma, etc. AND even if we do have a sense of their
ancestral roots, talking about it doesn't seem to resolve it. This is
shown
by the experience of very slow process of talk therapy, vs. the much
shorter and incredibly effective Constellation healing. So one might say
in
this case: talking has very little effect on the larger field.
The one place talk therapy is recognized as effective, though, is when
the talk hits on the deeper roots of an issue. Then we can feel in our
bodies, as in the Focusing work of Eugene Gendlin, that something has
resonated and moved.
2. I also have started engaging in dream work, especially the practice
of "Lightning Dream Work" described by Robert Moss. In this process, once
the dream is presented to a group, participants respond to it with the
statement "If this were my dream..." and they give their thoughts as if it
were LITERALLY their dream. It's quite a special process, as it reveals
multiple facets of what's in the larger field of that dream. The dreamer
can then take what's relevant to them, and is often shown new things they
had never considered. That information, provided not just through the
experiencing of the dream but also through the elucidation of the dream
using words, is quite valuable. Again, it feels like it has the effect of
moving something resonant from the wordless Field into our personal
consciousness, which can be very healing.
The "If this were my dream" has started moving into my Constellation
work, and now when I experience a Constellation that is not mine, there
are
times when I talk about it using that language, especially if the seeker
is
confused by the Constellation.
Silence vs. Words -
3. On the other hand, there is a clear place for silence. The profound,
sacred beauty of a Constellation often creates its own silence, naturally.
It's a silence that emerges from the movement in the Field. You can also
feel how, if you try to tell someone of the experience, there's a way it
can feel like profanity, as in irreverence or desecration. That contrast
between silence and words makes sense to me in the context of
Constellation
work.
4. Finally, there is the way I have interpreted / misinterpreted the
idea "don't talk about your constellation" - this is where the
superstition
part comes in. I have had the idea (where did it come from?) that talking
about your constellation in the wrong way can somehow undo the healing of
the Constellation. I am noticing that I feel that in my body as an actual
fear. Is that idea in the larger field? Where did it come from? Is it
true?
Is there evidence for such a thing.
My thoughts right now are that I have direct experience that shows me
that 1, 2, and 3 are true, and my conclusions are that talk can get in the
way of the "sacred silence" that emerges from a powerful Constellation,
but
not the healing movement itself.
Alison Fornés
It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that heals.
<http://alisonfornes.com> alisonfornes.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Top ^
3aRe: "don't talk about it"
Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:39 pm (PDT) . Posted by:"Anne Beversdorf" annebeversdorf
I'm not a regular participant in the discussion here, but I'm jumping in now
re the "don't talk about it" question.
It seems to me that participating in a constellation is a bit like rewriting
history. We hold the door open, during the process, so the people involved
can step into a parallel universe where the original issue was resolved in
the way the constellation indicated. When a person allows the personal
rewrite of history, the results can be amazing, with family members not
present in the constellation changing their behaviors and lives. On the
other hand, if the person keeps going back to look at the original problem,
it's as if they refuse to walk into the new reality. When I do
constellations I talk about them in these terms, indicating that if the
individual-AND anyone in the room, between each other--talks about the
PROBLEM, they are standing on this side of the threshold and holding
themselves and the constellation person back from walking thru the door to a
different reality. I don't see it as a superstition at all. (One time I
heard Bert H. say "Don't be like a dog, who eliminates stuff in the street
and then turns around and smells it.")
Anne Beversdorf
Counseling Astrologer, Western and Vedic
anne@xxxxxxxxxxx; www.stariel.com <http://www.stariel.com/> ;
Book: Vedic Secrets to Happiness www.createspace.com/3802578
I can do no other than be reverent before everything that is called life.
~~ Albert Schweitzer
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Top ^
3bRe: "don't talk about it"
Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:51 pm (PDT) . Posted by:"Irma Boyle"
I like the way you have described it Anne.
Irma
On Jul 31, 2014, at 4:39 PM, 'Anne Beversdorf' anne@xxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] wrote:
I‚m not a regular participant in the discussion here, but I‚m jumping in
now re the „don‚t talk about it‰ question.
It seems to me that participating in a constellation is a bit like
rewriting history. We hold the door open, during the process, so the people
involved can step into a parallel universe where the original issue was
resolved in the way the constellation indicated. When a person allows the
personal rewrite of history, the results can be amazing, with family
members not present in the constellation changing their behaviors and
lives. On the other hand, if the person keeps going back to look at the
original problem, it‚s as if they refuse to walk into the new reality. When
I do constellations I talk about them in these terms, indicating that if
the individual˜AND anyone in the room, between each other--talks about the
PROBLEM, they are standing on this side of the threshold and holding
themselves and the constellation person back from walking thru the door to
a different reality. I don‚t see it as a superstition at all. (One time I
heard Bert H. say „Don‚t be like a dog, who eliminates stuff in the street
and then turns around and smells it.‰)
Anne Beversdorf
Counseling Astrologer, Western and Vedic
anne@xxxxxxxxxxx; www.stariel.com;
Book: Vedic Secrets to Happiness www.createspace.com/3802578
I can do no other than be reverent before everything that is called life.
~~ Albert Schweitzer
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
protection is active.
Reply to sender . Reply to group . Reply via Web Post . All Messages (2) .
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