(reply to Bruce) ... one would first have to know what an empirical discovery of such a thing or its opposite would have to look like. It seems to lead to one of two directions. It might go into "possible-world talk," which itself seems far more speculative. Or it will take the form, "the MRI looks like this, and I have a theory about what this means." I'm not sure why this latter claim wouldn't be subject to the same sort of objection. Here is what I want to say: what needs to be seen? What he is saying is that thought is sentential. That's his point. That the flow or structure of thought is language-like. You don't need an empirical account of anything here, because it is given to you as a therapy, not as journalism. If you would dispute the premise (idea), the goal would be to see what you meant -- to see whether your grammar might be knotted up. This is exactly what Philosophical Investigations is doing. It's Wittgenstein showing you how to philosophize. Imagine someone saying, "when I think in language, there is more than the meaning of words in my mind. There is extra meaning." One would not say: where is the empiricism for that? Where's your proof? One would want to know two simple things: (1) is there a clinical problem (in which case real therapy might be needed); or (2) is there confusion in the grammar of the expression. You might say, "give an example." And an exchange would ensue that allowed you to completely investigate how this "extra mind meaning" played in the person's lexicon (grammar). After you figured out exactly the assertability conditions, you would then "conjugate" the matter by relating it to the same sort of thing that you express for that. "Oh you mean 'anticipation.' Well, even that is sentential too, -- no?" Of course, if your form of life was different, you could not relate to it. (How do I know what a Lion says ...). If it were, you would be able to acquire some sense of it (assuming at least equal degree of sophistication). Given the way minds are, the sense that you would acquire would either be poor or sophisticated. You know that immediately. And if you were especially sophisticated -- if you could see deeply into ideas and into thoughts -- you probably would find many of the expressions of others to be either ordinary or confused. You would rarely find something contemplative from another's utterances where you had received the therapeutic benefit. Regards and thanks Dr. Sean Wilson, Esq. Assistant Professor Wright State University Redesigned Website: http://seanwilson.org SSRN papers: http://ssrn.com/author=596860 Twitter: http://twitter.com/seanwilsonorg Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/seanwilsonorg New Discussion Group: http://seanwilson.org/wittgenstein.discussion.html WEB VIEW: http://tinyurl.com/ku7ga4 TODAY: http://alturl.com/whcf 3 DAYS: http://alturl.com/d9vz 1 WEEK: http://alturl.com/yeza GOOGLE: http://groups.google.com/group/Wittrs YAHOO: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wittrs/ FREELIST: //www.freelists.org/archive/wittrs/09-2009