[tcb] Re: Anyone ever heard or seen this before? is it snakeoil ?
- From: Mark Sawyer <mechmark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:45:45 -0800 (PST)
Running an external cooler is great as long as you run it with a thermostat to
control oil temp.
Brian Denning <i_am_cool_fred@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: .hmmessage P {
margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage { FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma } you know, i was thinking about you the last time i
changed my oil, Will. When i changed it it had maybe 5k on it and it was the
same color comming out as it was when i poured it in...that true full flow
setup is awesome i love it and it saves my bus because there is an extra half
quart of oil running through the lines so if i am low i won't burn the motor up.
i've put some thought into running an external cooler but i am thinking that is
overkill because the dog house seems to do the trick and i dont want to over
cool the oil...especially if i get to drive it any this winter.
just rambling really...back to you mark
> Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:20:21 -0600
> From: evilscientistboo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [tcb] Re: Anyone ever heard or seen this before? is it snakeoil ?
>
> Flash point is the lowest temperature point at which a flammable liquid will
> burn, not that it burns necessarily hotter.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point
>
> Lead is banned as a fuel additive.. So Lucas, nor Marvel could be selling
> this .. http://www.epa.gov/EPA-AIR/1996/February/Day-02/pr-1326.html
>
> As for the cleaning action, that's the Mystery... "ho dey do dat?"
>
> I use Castrol Syntec... And I'm starting to use Royal Purple now.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: j duncan <whocanduncan@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Sent: Nov 28, 2007 1:35 PM
> >To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [tcb] Re: Anyone ever heard or seen this before? is it snakeoil ?
> >
> >
> >Great discussion, though! Okay,Oil has a higher flash point, which means it
> >burns hotter. Isn't that how it "cleans" the carbon (points #1 and #2). .
> >.by burning it off? So wouldn't a hotter combustion null points #4 and #5?
> >And doesn't Lucas have a small amount of lead in it?BTW: I use Castrol oil.
> >It contains no paraffin. ;)Peace-out!Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 12:43:17
> >-0600From: evilscientistboo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: [tcb]
> >Re: Anyone ever heard or seen this before? is it snakeoil ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Okay... This is one of those VW discussions starting like "what engine oil
> >do I use... " LOL
> >If we talk "Marvel Mystery Oil" and like additvies they do a few things that
> >are proven out:
> >1) The remove gum/varnish and carbon buildup and lubricate your fuel system
> >components. This means, carb jets, passages in the carb, intake manifold
> >etc. that it goes through. Carbon in the combustion chamber and on the
> >valves introduces turbulent airflow and more heat on the components...
> >Carbon on the valves means the valve has a harder time disappating the heat
> >through the carbon.
> >2) You can use Marvel in the Tank or In an injection system like the Oiler
> >bottle you see. Either way (repeat either way) you'd get the same results
> >except you wouldn't have Marvel in your carbuerator/fuel delivery system
> >except from the manifold down just using the Oiler. IMO that's one of the
> >main benefits because it cleans out the fuel system however the
> >ratio/mixture is governed by your fuel consumption, not by a settable amount
> >via the Injection Oiler.
> >3) I use Lucas Fuel Additive in everything (even the ones with the Judson's)
> >because it works for me and I have seen improvements on teardowns,
> >performance and mileage. YMMV.
> >4) The flash point of Marvel and Lucas is higher than gasoline so there is
> >some residual effects on the combustion chamber, exhaust valve/guide and
> >port.
> >5) The use of the oiler depending on how much you inject will cool the
> >intake charge. Cooler air in = less heat produced and more power from a
> >denser air charge to the engine. You'd have to turn it up a lot to see a
> >huge benefit in cooling here.
> >6) The Oilers are necessary on Judson, Rotax style superchargers to
> >lubricate the vanes and bearings.
> >7) The issues around #3 *were* applicable with overloaded and overstressed
> >engines with inline coolers. Hence the Doghouse Cooler introduced in 1971.
> >Even so, the inline cooler did not (ever) put hot air from the oil cooler
> >over the head, it exited over the cylinders.. Heat is in the heads, power is
> >in the heads. Millions of ACVW inline oil cooler engines were built and they
> >lasted within their service lives.. 60,000 miles... ;-) In my 30 years of
> >"tinkering" with dubs, I've seen valve failures on all cylinders, intake and
> >exhaust and seats go everywhere, not just #3.
> >8) Porsches and Type IVs received Sodium Exhaust Valves which disappated the
> >heat better and prevented most of the failures encountered with the classic
> >VW exhaust valve kablooie. Typical of a Sodium and "normal" valve is to also
> >have it break below the triple keeper grooves. As a comparison, Big Valve
> >heads (using Chevy Valves) use single groove keepers which allow the valve
> >stem end to be stronger.
> >Now, for the Water Injection fans... Water Injection also decarbonizes and
> >cools the intake charge but doesn't provide any lubrication benefits.
> >As a side note, if you read the Hot VWs series on the "Mileage Engine"
> >you'll notice the exhaust valves used have fatter stems because of (in
> >roughly their words) "The Fuel Injection System would tend to lean the
> >engine out." These are 9mm AFAIR. These are nearly the same size as 11/32"
> >Chevy style valves (single keeper) that a lot of the big dollar heads
> >use.Net Net, for me, it's Lucas in the tank and no oilers except in the
> >Judsons... Then it's Marvel in the bottle and Lucas in the tank.
> >
> >-----Original Message----- From: j duncan Sent: Nov 28, 2007 11:28 AM To:
> >tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [tcb] Re: Anyone ever heard or seen this before?
> >is it snakeoil ?
> >
> >Since oil is nearly as flammable as gas, wouldn't its lubricating properties
> >just go up in smoke when mixed with the air/fuel intake?? Lead, with its
> >higher combustion point, is the missing lubricant in today's fuel. There's
> >certainly a lot of debate over Marvel Mystery Oil and other additives.
> >Although my memory doesn't go back as far as when Jack was a teenager, I
> >agree with him. They can't do much harm so long as you don't over do it.
> >
> >
> >To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: [tcb] Re: Anyone ever heard or seen this
> >before? is it snakeoil ?Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 11:59:42 -0500From:
> >jki7886155@xxxxxxx
> >These oilers have been around since before I was a teenager. In my opinion,
> >they can't hurt anything but, do they reduce maintenance?, I have never seen
> >any proof, pro or con. My friend put one on his mother's '50 Plymouth which
> >(once in a while) we used to spike with some either that his brother would
> >bring home from Medical School. It sure would would make that old "flat head
> >6" fly!Jack Kirsch
> >So what is the answer from the more experienced (I wasn't going to say
> >older) VWers about whether the oiler is a good idea or not??? sammie smith
> ><bugcollections@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >In some cases tight is good but not in VW valve adjustment.Brian Denning
> ><i_am_cool_fred@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >everytime i run my valves i notice hardley any difference in the feeler
> >gauge from what they were set on...perhaps this is because i do it about
> >once a month (600 miles tops). i was a bit concerned with that untill i was
> >told that is a good thing that a tight valve is the no bueno type situation
> >
> >
> >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:19:25 -0800From:
> >bugcollections@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: [tcb] Re: Anyone ever heard or seen
> >this before? is it snakeoil ?To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Where there are engineers there are always lots of opinions. Both Steve and
> >Denis should be able to speak with experience on trashed valves.
> >
> >Will's right about watching the adjustment; and if one keeps getting tight
> >on you it's a darn good idea to pull the head before catastrophe happens. I
> >used to have a VW powered airplane (Evans VP-1) and after every 50 or so
> >hours of flying time I would yank the heads and replace all exhaust
> >valves.Will Wood <evilscientistboo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >The kit is similar to the Marvel oiler. The Marvel oiler in my opinionhas
> >better control but top end cylinder lubrication is always a goodthing. Water
> >injection will also give you similar results but it's moredifficult to
> >control.It definitely helps a Judson Engine stay alive but I don't know if
> >Iagree about all of the other statements they make in their ad.>> Exhaust
> >valve seat recession can result, a >> condition where valve and seat
> >materials adhere to and erode each>> other, with the valve migrating up >>
> >into the head.If you severly overheat the engine or have crappy heads or
> >valve workdone this can also happen which is more common. Running the
> >enginelean, bad timing or heavy loads all contribute to the heat issue.
> >The10% Ethanol in Gas doesn't help either since it leans out the mixture.>>
> >As this occurs, valve stem to rocker tip clearance is reduced. If>> this
> >clearance reduces >> to zero, the valve no longer closes, resulting in a
> >burned valve. That's why you
adjust your valves... Valves have more of a tendancy tostretch from fatigue.
Any time you have a valve "tighten up" it is acause for concern since normally
the clearance should stay relativelythe same.If you run moly pushrods you
should run them "loose zero" since theengine expands as it warms up. Steel
doesn't expand like aluminum does.Any valve failure can occur if the parts are
questionable. Like reusingexhaust valves which result in the most damaging
catastrophies. Even ifyou have great parts it can happen. I lost a seat in a
set of CB StreetEliminators after 1200 miles on the engine. I also know of
anotherperson who had two valve guides come loose and the seating area
crackedaround the guides on a brand new set of CB heads after 900 miles on
theheads. This isn't inexpensive stuff either... My rule of thumb on a street
engine is every 35-40K miles the heads comeoff and the exhaust valves are
replaced along with a valve job.On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 02:46 -0600, Trey Jung
wrote:> > http://www.ampcolubes.com./vw.html> > > There's an ad on
thesamba.com too .......... Just wondering....> > Trey> >
> >
> >You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i?m
> >Initiative now. Join in!
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----From: Mark Sawyer <mechmark@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>To:
> >tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:29 amSubject: [tcb] Re: Anyone
> >ever heard or seen this before? is it snakeoil ?
> >So what is the answer from the more experienced (I wasn't going to say
> >older) VWers about whether the oiler is a good idea or not??? sammie smith
> ><bugcollections@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >In some cases tight is good but not in VW valve adjustment.Brian Denning
> ><i_am_cool_fred@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> >everytime i run my valves i notice hardley any difference in the feeler
> >gauge from what they were set on...perhaps this is because i do it about
> >once a month (600 miles tops). i was a bit concerned with that untill i was
> >told that is a good thing that a tight valve is the no bueno type situation
> >
> >
> >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:19:25 -0800From:
> >bugcollections@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx: [tcb] Re: Anyone ever heard or seen
> >this before? is it snakeoil ?To: tcb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Where there are engineers there are always lots of opinions. Both Steve and
> >Denis should be able to speak with experience on trashed valves.
> >
> >Will's right about watching the adjustment; and if one keeps getting tight
> >on you it's a darn good idea to pull the head before catastrophe happens. I
> >used to have a VW powered airplane (Evans VP-1) and after every 50 or so
> >hours of flying time I would yank the heads and replace all exhaust
> >valves.Will Wood <evilscientistboo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >The kit is similar to the Marvel oiler. The Marvel oiler in my opinionhas
> >better control but top end cylinder lubrication is always a goodthing. Water
> >injection will also give you similar results but it's moredifficult to
> >control.It definitely helps a Judson Engine stay alive but I don't know if
> >Iagree about all of the other statements they make in their ad.>> Exhaust
> >valve seat recession can result, a >> condition where valve and seat
> >materials adhere to and erode each>> other, with the valve migrating up >>
> >into the head.If you severly overheat the engine or have crappy heads or
> >valve workdone this can also happen which is more common. Running the
> >enginelean, bad timing or heavy loads all contribute to the heat issue.
> >The10% Ethanol in Gas doesn't help either since it leans out the mixture.>>
> >As this occurs, valve stem to rocker tip clearance is reduced. If>> this
> >clearance reduces >> to zero, the valve no longer closes, resulting in a
> >burned valve. That's why you
adjust your valves... Valves have more of a tendancy tostretch from fatigue.
Any time you have a valve "tighten up" it is acause for concern since normally
the clearance should stay relativelythe same.If you run moly pushrods you
should run them "loose zero" since theengine expands as it warms up. Steel
doesn't expand like aluminum does.Any valve failure can occur if the parts are
questionable. Like reusingexhaust valves which result in the most damaging
catastrophies. Even ifyou have great parts it can happen. I lost a seat in a
set of CB StreetEliminators after 1200 miles on the engine. I also know of
anotherperson who had two valve guides come loose and the seating area
crackedaround the guides on a brand new set of CB heads after 900 miles on
theheads. This isn't inexpensive stuff either... My rule of thumb on a street
engine is every 35-40K miles the heads comeoff and the exhaust valves are
replaced along with a valve job.On Wed, 2007-11-28 at 02:46 -0600, Trey Jung
wrote:> > http://www.ampcolubes.com./vw.html> > > There's an ad on
thesamba.com too .......... Just wondering....> > Trey> >
> >
> >You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i?m
> >Initiative now. Join in!
> >
> >
> >More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail!
> >
> >You keep typing, we keep giving. Download Messenger and join the i?m
> >Initiative now. Join in!
> >
> >
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