[SI-LIST] Re: time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
- From: Ray Anderson <ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "sherman.chen@xxxxxxx" <sherman.chen@xxxxxxx>, "nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx" <nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, "si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 18:57:38 +0000
Sherman-
When you extract the s-parameter model that includes both the signal nets and
the PDN you will be accounting for the coupling between the signal nets and the
power net. You do not need to add numerous extra ports as you suggest.
We do SSN simulations all the time on a 52 net bank using a 107-port model (52
signal die ports, 52 signal BGA ports and 3 ports for the PDN: die, BGA and
decap). That configuration works just fine.
-Ray
Raymond Anderson
Senior Signal Integrity Staff Engineer
Programmable Platforms Development
Silicon Technology Group
Signal Integrity and Package Development Department
Xilinx Inc.
2100 Logic Drive
San Jose, California 95124
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Chen, Sherman
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:47 AM
To: nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
Nilesh,
Thanks for the paper. My question is regarding how to model the coupling from
PDN to the transmission line, not the transmitter or the receiver chip. The
coupling effect across the whole span of the tline need to be calculated. To do
that in circuit simulator what I can think of is to use a multi-port sparam
which's ports are extracted btw the locations along the tline and the VRM, at
the interval of say lambda/20. At each location the port need to be set at four
points: DP+, DP-, Vcc on power plane, and GND on the ground plane.
Any comments on this thought?
-----Original Message-----
From: nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nilesh_kamdar2@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:38 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Chen, Sherman
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
Sherman
If I understood your question correctly, I believe that this simulation can be
handled in ADS. To do this you need to create an SI/PI model of the physical
interconnects that includes all the power/ground planes and also signal lines.
Then you can apply specific time domain stimulus in a Transient simulation.
Here is a DesignCon 2014 paper that explains how we can do this:
Paper:
http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5991-4083EN.pdf
Slides:
http://www.xilinx.com/events/designcon2014/11_WE5Slides_Touchstonev2SIPISParameterModels.pdf
If you have more questions about this technique, you can contact me offline.
Thanks
Nilesh Kamdar
Applications Engineer, Keysight Technologies
-----Original Message-----
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Msg: #1 in digest
From: "Chen, Sherman" <sherman.chen@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [SI-LIST] time domain simulation w/ PDN planes
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2014 14:07:19 +0000
Hello experts,
I'm trying to evaluate the impact of power plane noise on the HS signals. The
sim setup would require to apply a noise source on the PDN (somewhere btw power
plane and ground plane), also a PRBS source at the initial end of the t-line.
To my knowledge it looks only Cadence Sigrity Speed2000 can run such SI/PI
combined sim since the feedback I got from Keysight and ANSYS both said that
neither ADS nor SIWave can handle such sim case where time domain sim needs to
be run w/ the noise coupled from power/ground plane. Note the coupling needs to
be from the whole plane rather than injected at one point for the latter we can
simply use a sparam model of the PDN as the means of noise injection but this
would not be the equivalent of the plane coupling, right?
Any suggestion will be appreciated.
Best Regards,
Sherman Chen
Signal Integrity
EMC Global Hardware Engineering
Tel: +86 21 60951100-3329
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