[SI-LIST] Re: tDQSCK
- From: Jory McKinley <jory_mckinley@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Fraiman, Edi" <Edi.Fraiman@xxxxxxxxxx>, james.f.peterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:51:47 -0800 (PST)
Hello Edi,
Yes but it appears that you are attempting to place an additional constraint on
DQS (tDQSCK) which is not required for timing the Read interface. The
parameter tDQSCK for the micron part is well within the JEDEC standard (+/-
750ps) so you are ok there.
DQ follows DQS to within the min/max skew parameters regardless of the DQS
pulse width which is what you need for Read timing.
I have not seen this but does the controller have a specific pulse width
contraint for DQS? If so then I would think you can set this up as a seperate
pulse wdith timing check in TimingDesigner?
Enjoy,
-Jory
"Fraiman, Edi" <Edi.Fraiman@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Message Jory,
I am speaking about DQS width.
tDQSCK parameter defined as "DQS output access time from CK/~CK " (usually
min. -0.6ns and max. 0.6ns).
If DDR clock is 200Mhz than clock cycle is 5ns and half cycle is 2.5ns, then
DQS width could be 2.5-0.6+(-0.6) = 1.3 ns.
Please see in attached data sheet p.80 Figure 42: Data Output Timing ? tAC
and tDQSCK. The DQS could be wide and thin, so tDQSCK is a jitter.
Best regards,
Edi Fraiman
-----Original Message-----
From: Jory McKinley [mailto:jory_mckinley@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 3:33 PM
To: Fraiman, Edi; james.f.peterson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: tDQSCK
Edi,
For Read timing the relationship to consider is the DQ to DQS skew from the
memory which is roughly +/- 400ps for this part. If you are running at
200Mhz as you mentioned the window to hit will be 2.5ns. This leaves you
with about 1.7ns to account for the controller DQ/DQS setup/hold time as
well as the min/max flight time variation between DQ/DQS. Hope this is
helpful,
-Jory
"Fraiman, Edi" <Edi.Fraiman@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Jim,
Yes you are correct I am speaking about read cycle for DDR1.
If my calculations below are right I do not understand how DDR
controller could face such tight number as 1.3ns.
------------------------
Lets say that DDR clock is 200Mhz so clock cycle is 5ns and half cycle
is 2.5ns.
According to DDR1 data sheet tDQSCK (DQS output access time from CK/~CK
) is -0.6ns min. and +0.6ns max.
Then DQS width could be 2.5-(0.6+0.6) =3D 1.3 ns.
--------------------------------
=20
Best regards,
Edi Fraiman
=20
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Peterson,=20
> James F (EHCOE)
> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 7:43 AM
> To: si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: tDQSCK
>=20
>=20
> Edi,
>=20
> Although DQS can occur before CK, tDQSCK is not really=20
> jitter. In other words it's not a cycle by cycle variant -=20
> more a long term delay. So it's shifts, but doesn't "shrink".
>=20
> I assume this is a read cycle (since you're looking at the=20
> DDR driving DQS). Isn't the most important timing the delay=20
> between DQS and DQ? And this is not directly influenced by=20
> tDQSCK. (only indirectly when you cross clock domains back at=20
> the controller during a read cycle.)=3D20
>=20
> If I'm correct in my above assumption then you are indeed=20
> seeing a timing violation. And you should. DDR SDRAM does not=20
> put DQS in the middle of the DQ "eye". You have to do it=20
> either in the controller or on the pcb.=3D20
>=20
> DDR SDRAM is very spoiled : it insists that during a write=20
> cycle that the controller takes care of tSU/tHOLD between DQS=20
> and DQ and during a read cycle, as it outputs DQS and DQ, it=20
> makes the same demand.
>=20
> (a word of caution, my reply is very relative to DDR1, I'm=20
> not absolutely sure about DDR2)=3D20
>=20
> Jim Peterson
> Honeywell
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Fraiman, Edi
> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:44 PM
> To: si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] tDQSCK
>=20
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D3D"us-ascii"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=3D3D20
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> I have question about Micron DDR parameter tDQSCK=3D3D3DAccess=20
> window of =3D DQS from CK/CK#.=3D3D20 According Micron data sheet=20
> this time is jitter and =3D not skew.=3D3D20
>=20
> =3D3D20
> Please see the diagram from Micron data sheet : the DQS=20
> signal could be wider or thinner because max. and min. of tDQSCK.
>=20
> But according to JEDEC JESD79E tDQSCK is skew from CK/CK# =20
> and DQS could not be wider or thinner please see below=20
> diagram from JEDEC.
>=20
> =3D3D20
> The problem is when I prepare timing diagrams with=20
> TimingDesigner tool if I assume than tDQSCK is jitter from=20
> CK/CK# and DQS could be wider or thinner than I get time violation.
>=20
> If I assume than tDQSCK is skew from CK/CK# and DQS could=20
> not be wider or thinner than timing is OK.=3D3D20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Edi Fraiman
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> - - - - - Appended by Scientific Atlanta, a Cisco=20
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