Doug, it is all a matter or likelyhood. If you use rounded electrodes (no = corona discharge) and dry air you will get really fast discharges up to = 25k V or so. We have measured such discharges usign the old Andy Hish = simulator, but also with people. If you look at the gemeotry of a memory card there are plenty of sharp = edges. If we assume the card, or the cell phone or the camera is charged = to 8kV and you plug the card into the reader then there will be some = corona. This corona will initiate the discharge over a larger distance = (e.g, Paschen length for 8kV is about 2mm or so) and the discharge will = be soft. Without the corona the electrodes could approach further before = they the discharge is initiated. In summary, I agree that for such a = geometry the likelyhood of sub-nanosecond discharges at 8kV is probably = low. David Pommerenke -----Original Message----- From: Doug Smith [mailto:doug@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Tue 9/5/2006 8:17 PM To: dcuthbert@xxxxxxxxxx Cc: doug@xxxxxxxxxx; Pommerenke, David; 'SI-List'; 'emc-pstc' Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Testing chips with system level specs =20 Hi David, It is good to have lots of discussion on this. ESD is often only=20 considered when a gross problem surfaces. This discussion will help=20 bring the issue to the front. What voltages were you using? Such fast events are common at low=20 voltages and rare at high voltages. I have personally measured edges=20 of <80 picoseconds at low voltages. For my chip example where slow=20 approach (say plugging in a memory card into a reader) is the norm, a=20 fast edge is probably not possible although I do not have=20 comprehensive data on this. It seems one has to work at it to get a fast discharge at high=20 voltages, at least that is what I read through the lines. Hish et.al.=20 in a 1991 paper show three waveforms at about 10 kV, two slow and one=20 fast, but again they used a specific conical shaped tip with symmetry=20 that was required (that part was not spelled out clearly in the paper=20 but I was talking with a friend of Andy's). They said the likelihood=20 of the fast event was much smaller for a rounded tip. Doug David Cuthbert wrote: > Doug, >=20 > I've done some measurements of actual human body discharges into a 2 = ohm > current target. The rise time was less than 500 ps. I plan to continue = this > work soon using a 2.5 GHz oscilloscope and a TDR. The human SPICE = model I > developed is quite interesting and I'll be refining it.=20 >=20 > I then built a circuit that quite accurately mimics the actual human = body > discharge. It is much more complex than the usual ESD gun network.=20 >=20 > Dave Cuthbert =20 >=20 >=20 > LINEAR TECHNOLOGY CORPORATION > =20 >=20 > Internet Email Confidentiality Footer=20 >=20 > This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail > messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is = legally > privileged. IF you are not the intended recipient, or a person = responsible > for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified = that > any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information > contain in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If = you > have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify me = by > reply e-mail, or by telephone at (719)593-1579,and destroy the = original > transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any = manner. > Thank You >=20 >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: emc-pstc@xxxxxxxx [mailto:emc-pstc@xxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Doug = Smith > Sent: Monday, September 04, 2006 11:15 AM > To: davidjp@xxxxxxx > Cc: SI-List; emc-pstc > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: Testing chips with system level specs >=20 > Hi David and the group, >=20 > You have presented good data which you and others have presented in=20 > the various standards bodies we have attended together. However, have=20 > you ever seen an air discharge with a 700 ps rise time at 8 kV? If so, = > what is the probability in the distribution of 8kV discharges? I=20 > measured a lot of discharges and none came close to that. Some had a=20 > vestige of the initial spike, but it was not much larger that the body = > discharge after and its risetime was always much slower. >=20 > If this concept was to be included in a standard, a lot of work would=20 > be needed to determine the right amount of filtering. >=20 > But, to apply this waveform (8 kV contact discharge) to a solid state=20 > device like a flash memory card is not justified and will needlessly=20 > increase device cost. I do agree that an 8kV contact discharge has=20 > uses in system level testing which what the 61000-4-2 standard was=20 > intended for. >=20 > There is a LOT of work to apply that standard to devices, much more=20 > than the filtering I wrote about. There is no guidance in the standard = > as to how to apply the discharge and how it is applied will almost=20 > completely determine the results (other pins grounded or ungrounded,=20 > if grounded how, and much more). If someone says their device passes=20 > this test, the statement is meaningless at this point unless the test=20 > method is documented. >=20 > Doug >=20 > Pommerenke, David wrote: >=20 >>Group, >>I like the idea from Doug to use a ferrite for reducing the risetime = of a >=20 > contact mode ESD generator. However, I do not agree to the statement = that > air discharge ESD will not show fast risetimes and high peak values at > voltages above 4kV. The reference event for the ESD standard IEC = 61000-4-2 > is the discharge between a hand-held metal part and a large metallic = surface > (called "hand-metal ESD") in contrast to the IC-HBM standard that is = based > on a discharge from the skin. >=20 >>The current has two maxima, an initial peak caused by the charges on = teh >=20 > hand and on the metal part and the later body waveform. If the initial = peak > will show up depends on the resistance of the arc as a function of = time. If > the arc resistance drops quickly (let us say in less than 1ns) below = the > source impedance of the discharging person (without going into = details, > assume 100-300 Ohm http://web.umr.edu/~davidjp/paper/00478274.pdf ), = then > the inital peak will show up. If the arc resistance drops slowly, let = us say > it reaches 300 Ohm in 5 ns, then the initial peak will not show up, as = the > arc resistance is too high during this phase of the discharge. >=20 >>So the quesion is: How fast does the arc resistance drop? >> >>This depends mainly on: >> >> - Voltage at the moment the discharge starts >> - Gap distance at the moment the discharge starts >> >>The smaller the gap, the faster the arc resistance will drop. The gaps >=20 > will in most cases not discharge over distances given by the = Paschen-law, > but at smaller distance. This is a result of the speed of appraoch and = the > statistical time lag (). >=20 >>In general the behavior is as follows: >> >> Fast rise times --- Slow rise times >> =20 >> Fast approach slow approach >> Dry air Moist iar >> Clean surfaces Dirty surfaces >> Oxid layer, or paint =20 >>=20 >>The effect of environmental conidtions on the discharge are very = strong. >=20 > Humidity dominates over all other influencing factors (I can email = papers on > this topic on request). It is not possible to state: Above XYZ kV = discharges > will not have an initial peak. >=20 >>To provide further evidence I attached a set of measurements that show = the >=20 > peak current as a function of voltage having the arc length as = parameter. > The data is from D.Pommerenke, ESD: Transient fields, arc simulation = and > rise time limits, Journal of Electrostatics, 36, 1995, 31-54. >=20 >>However, the likelyhood of having fast risetimes (e..g, less than = 200ps) >=20 > decreases above about 6-10 kV. Nobody knows the distribution of ESD > intensity in reality very well. There are a few studies, but they only = help > to answer the question of voltage distribution, not of rise time > distribution or field strengths distribution. >=20 >>Overall, I warn against changing the pulse parameters above some = voltage >=20 > without having strong evidence that the reduction in protection level = is > acceptable, the 0.7ns-1ns risetime is already providing only partial > coverage.=20 >=20 >>Products that may see many ESDs or support critical functions should >=20 > certainly not be tested at a different waveform. The 0.7ns - 1ns rise = time > standardized contact mode waveform certainly does not cover the faster = ESD > events. >=20 >>Regards, >> >> David Pommerenke >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Doug Smith >>Sent: Sun 9/3/2006 11:03 PM >>To: SI-List; emc-pstc >>Subject: [SI-LIST] Testing chips with system level specs >>=20 >>Hi All, >> >>I have been writing and recording again, this time on applying system=20 >>level ESD tests to devices. If you are involved with either devices=20 >>that can be handled by people (for instance a USB thumb drive for=20 >>flash memory card) or the equipment they plug into you will find my=20 >>latest article and podcast of interest. Any standards people out = there? >> >>This month's Technical Tidbit describes a method to simulate air=20 >>discharges at voltages above 4 kV in a repeatable way using a modified = >>contact discharge. This method is especially useful in ESD testing of=20 >>solid state circuits using IEC 61000-4-2. >> >>Abstract: Contact discharge is used in ESD testing to improve test=20 >>repeatability, yet air discharge has significantly different=20 >>characteristics at higher voltages. A test method is described that=20 >>uses a modified contact discharge to simulate the characteristics of=20 >>an air discharge but with improved repeatability. >> >>The link to the article is the picture of the experimental test setup=20 >>at the bottom of the home page at http://emcesd.com . Or just click on = >>this link: >> >>http://emcesd.com/tt2006/tt090106.htm >> >>There is also an audio discussion of this article on my podcast site:=20 >>http://emcesd-podcast.com where the direct link to the audio file is: >> >>http://emcesd-podcast.com/2006/september/2006-0904.mp3 >> >>Can't download mp3 files? Download the following instead: >> >>http://emcesd-podcast.com/2006/september/2006-0904.dcs >> >>After download, change the extension from .dcs to .mp3 and the file=20 >>will then be able to play on most computers. >> >>Doug >> >=20 >=20 --=20 ------------------------------------------------------------ ___ _ Doug Smith \ / ) P.O. Box 1457 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Los Gatos, CA = 95031-1457 _ / \ / \ _ TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799 / /\ \ ] / /\ \ Mobile: 408-858-4528 | q-----( ) | o | Email: doug@xxxxxxxxxx \ _ / ] \ _ / Web: http://www.dsmith.org ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu