[SI-LIST] Re: Equations for creating twisted pair transmission lines?
- From: "Russell D. Moser" <r.moser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 08:18:41 -0400
To all;
Juliusz has had (and continues to have) a stellar career in em modeling and
simulation going back about 20 years or so; and I am sure that his solver(s)
merit attention.
My points on the "real world" variability of multi-conductor cable
assemblies are captured well in a report I saw recently on the KRONE
(www.krone.com) web site.
While not endorsing any single company or product, this report entitled
"Making_the_impossible_Possible", was a good work that contained a good
thesis and, most importantly, excellent in my judgement)supporting
photographs and diagrams on how these cables can vary not only as a result
of manufacture but even as the result of installation.
In closing, I extend my best wishes to Juliusz and Scott for continued
success and spirited technical discourse on this reflector.
Now, onto my coffee.
Regards,
___________________
Russell D. Moser
Managing Director
Orion Group
r.moser@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.theoriongroup.net
717.914.0116
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Juliusz Poltz
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 9:10 PM
> To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Equations for creating twisted pair
> transmission lines?
>
> Hi Tom, Russell and Scott,
>
> We actually have been modeling 4 pair cables, each with
> different twist rates, bundle-lay and shields and correlating
> it with measurement data for the last 4 years. Although just
> recently we started looking into tolerance and manufacturing
> variations, we presented papers with our customers and
> published some of the correlation data based on ideal
> manufacturing conditions at the International Wire and Cable
> Symposium (IWCS 2000-2004).
> Automated creation of the geometrical model that is
> physically similar to the cable was difficult - but doable.
> Simulation results of Characteristic Impedance, speed of
> propagation, attenuation, NEXT, FEXT and return loss match
> the measurement data very well - if the manufacturing process
> is well controlled. Although the software calculates
> S-parameters through chain parameters it also allows the user
> to create Spice models (including w-models).
>
> Best regards
>
> Juliusz Poltz" <jpoltz@xxxxxxxxx>
> *****************************************************
> OptEM Engineering Inc. Ph: (403) 289-0499
> Suite 453 Fax: (403) 282-1238
> 3553 - 31st Street N.W. Web page: www.optem.com
> Calgary, AB Canada T2L 2K7
> *****************************************************
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <tom_cip_11551@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 1:00 PM
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Equations for creating twisted pair
> transmission lines?
>
>
> > Tom
> >
> > As Russell has stated, there is pretty much no way to
> create a twisted
> > pair model from EM field solvers that will correlate with
> measurement.
> > There are so many variations in the manufacture of cable and
> > repetitive variations due to the process, that it truly takes
> > measurement to determine the actual cable behavior. in our work we
> > have used VNA and TDR measurment based modeling approaches
> to create
> > cable models. I would suggest an approach using a TDR and
> TDA Systems
> > iConnect, or an approach using a VNA with a sweep range
> from the 100
> > kHz to 1 GHz range and s-parameter modeling. (HSPICE now does a
> > reasonably good job of using Touchstone S-parameters in time domain
> > simulation ... although it is slow)
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > scott
> >
> > --
> > Scott McMorrow
> > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
> > 121 North River Drive
> > Narragansett, RI 02882
> > (401) 284-1827 Business
> > (401) 284-1840 Fax
> > (503) 750-6481 Cellular
> > http://www.teraspeed.com
> >
> > Teraspeed is the registered service mark of Teraspeed
> Consulting Group
> > LLC
> >
> >
> >
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