[SI-LIST] 答复: 答复: 答复: single RLC parameters at a certain frequency
- From: Rui Yang <rui_yang@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: 'xuzhengrong' <Zhengrong.Xu@xxxxxxxxxx>, si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 16:57:11 +0800
Hi, Zhengrong,
Please refer to IEEE Design & Test of Computers, "Packaging a 40-Gbps =
Serial
Link Using a Wire-bonded Plastic Ball Grid Array", Authored by Dong Gun =
Kam,
Joungho Kim, Jiheon Yu, Ho CHoi, Kicheol Bae and Choonheung Lee, there =
were
few simulated differential S-parameters up to 25GHz with respect to
different bonding pad/bonding wire loop configurations. From those =
frequency
domain results, one-pole low pass filter is justifiable to mimic the =
bonding
wire high frequency property. Even after including the routing traces =
inside
BGA package to bonding wires, the differential S-parameters still show
similar trend. If you are really pushing frequency to higher and higher, =
one
section of RLGC module will break too, it really depends on frequency =
and
interconnects length inside package.
Regards,
Rui Yang
Hardware R&D Dept., CPD., HUAWEI TECHNOLOGIES CO.,LTD. huawei_logo
Address: Huawei Industrial Base
Bantian Longgang
Shenzhen 518129, P.R.China
Tel: +86-0755-89651191
Mobile: +86-13924626970
E-mail: rui_yang@xxxxxxxxxx
www.huawei.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
---------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from
HUAWEI, which=20
is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. =
Any
use of the=20
information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to,
total or partial=20
disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the
intended=20
recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please
notify the sender by=20
phone or email immediately and delete it!
-----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE-----
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
=B4=FA=B1=ED xuzhengrong
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2008=C4=EA5=D4=C220=C8=D5 16:33
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'Rui Yang'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
=B3=AD=CB=CD: '=D1=CF=BA=BD'
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [SI-LIST] =B4=F0=B8=B4: =B4=F0=B8=B4: single RLC =
parameters at a certain frequency
Hi Rui and Steve,
My question isn't why we use lumped element to represent distributed =3D
element or how many sections of RLGC in series to meet the bandwidth of =
the
=3D model.
I mean that if the single section RLGC extracted at a certain frequency =
=3D
only represent the characteristic of s-param model at this frequency =
point,
=3D it can't be used to approximate the bandwidth of the model which we
usually =3D use 'the single section RLGC 'to do. The two RLGC are not =
the same
thing.
For example, if IBIS package model is extracted at 1GHz by default, can =
=3D it
be used to approximate the low frequency band which is within 1/10
wavelength?
Best Regards,
Zhengrong
-----=3DD3=3DCA=3DBC=3DFE=3DD4=3DAD=3DBC=3DFE-----
=3DB7=3DA2=3DBC=3DFE=3DC8=3DCB: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
=3DB4=3DFA=3DB1=3DED Rui Yang
=3DB7=3DA2=3DCB=3DCD=3DCA=3DB1=3DBC=3DE4: =
2008=3DC4=3DEA5=3DD4=3DC220=3DC8=3DD5 13:32
=3DCA=3DD5=3DBC=3DFE=3DC8=3DCB: 'xuzhengrong'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
=3DB3=3DAD=3DCB=3DCD: '=3DD1=3DCF=3DBA=3DBD'
=3DD6=3DF7=3DCC=3DE2: [SI-LIST] =3DB4=3DF0=3DB8=3DB4: single RLC =
parameters at a certain =3D
frequency
Hi, Zhengrong,
Transmission line RLGC model comes from unit length transmission line
equivalent circuit, in which each element has its own physical meaning, =
=3D
=3D3D it should help you to interpret.
The main difference between distributed element and lumped element is =
=3D =3D3D
the propagation/flying time, where there is no flying time for lumped =
=3D3D
element, while flying time is taken into consideration for distributed
element.
While for package model, under assumption the electrical length of
interconnects inside package is less than one tenth of wavelength, we =
=3D =3D3D
can treat them as lumped element. R represents interconnects conductor =
loss,
=3D =3D3D L represents interconnects inductance, C represent the =
interconnects
capacitance, G is negligeable here.
Hope it helps!
Regards,
Rui Yang
Hardware R&D Dept., CPD., HUAWEI TECHNOLOGIES CO.,LTD. huawei_logo
Address: Huawei Industrial Base
Bantian Longgang
Shenzhen 518129, P.R.China
Tel: +86-0755-89651191
Mobile: +86-13924626970
E-mail: rui_yang@xxxxxxxxxx
www.huawei.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
=3D
=3D3D
---
---------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from
HUAWEI, which=3D3D20 is intended only for the person or entity whose =
address
is listed above. =3D =3D3D Any use of the=3D3D20 information contained =
herein in
any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial=3D3D20 =
disclosure,
reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the =
intended=3D3D20
recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please
notify the sender by=3D3D20 phone or email immediately and delete it!
-----=3D3DD3=3D3DCA=3D3DBC=3D3DFE=3D3DD4=3D3DAD=3D3DBC=3D3DFE-----
=3D3DB7=3D3DA2=3D3DBC=3D3DFE=3D3DC8=3D3DCB: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =
=3D3D
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
=3D3DB4=3D3DFA=3D3DB1=3D3DED xuzhengrong
=3D3DB7=3D3DA2=3D3DCB=3D3DCD=3D3DCA=3D3DB1=3D3DBC=3D3DE4: =3D
2008=3D3DC4=3D3DEA5=3D3DD4=3D3DC220=3D3DC8=3D3DD5 11:43
=3D3DCA=3D3DD5=3D3DBC=3D3DFE=3D3DC8=3D3DCB: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
=3D3DB3=3D3DAD=3D3DCB=3D3DCD: '=3D3DD1=3D3DCF=3D3DBA=3D3DBD'
=3D3DD6=3D3DF7=3D3DCC=3D3DE2: [SI-LIST] single RLC parameters at a =
certain =3D
frequency
Hi,
To simplify the model, we often extract single RLGC parameters from the
s-parameter model at a certain frequency.
I wonder what on earth the meaning of the single frequency parameters =
=3D =3D3D
is.
First, if the parameters only represent the magnitude and phase of the
S-parameter model at the frequency point, it may have different =3D3D
combinations of RLGC to reach the same goal, what's the method or =
principle?
Second, if the parameters are meaningful at a certain frequency, why can
single RLGC parameters often be used to estimate characteristic of =3D3D
package model such as IBIS? =3D3D20
In my opinion, for example, the single RLGC model should be the =3D3D
first-order approximation to the real model for transmission line, as =
Eric's
book 'Signal Integrity: Simplified' said.
It is equivalent to the real model within low frequency range and we can =
=3D
=3D3D use it if the signal frequency component is within the range.
However, if the RLGC model extracted at a certain frequency is only
meaningful for the extracting frequency, it isn't the first-order
approximation for the transmission line.
So we can't use it as the first-order approximation and estimate its low
frequency characteristic.=3D3D20
Appreciate any idea and discussion for the problem.
Best Regards,
Zhengrong=3D3D20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at: =3D3D20
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
=3D3D20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at: =3D20
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
=3D20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at: =20
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
=20
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.net
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
