Hi Rui and Steve, My question isn't why we use lumped element to represent distributed = element or how many sections of RLGC in series to meet the bandwidth of the = model. I mean that if the single section RLGC extracted at a certain frequency = only represent the characteristic of s-param model at this frequency point, = it can't be used to approximate the bandwidth of the model which we usually = use 'the single section RLGC 'to do. The two RLGC are not the same thing. For example, if IBIS package model is extracted at 1GHz by default, can = it be used to approximate the low frequency band which is within 1/10 wavelength? Best Regards, Zhengrong -----=D3=CA=BC=FE=D4=AD=BC=FE----- =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx = [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =B4=FA=B1=ED Rui Yang =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2008=C4=EA5=D4=C220=C8=D5 13:32 =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: 'xuzhengrong'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =B3=AD=CB=CD: '=D1=CF=BA=BD' =D6=F7=CC=E2: [SI-LIST] =B4=F0=B8=B4: single RLC parameters at a certain = frequency Hi, Zhengrong, Transmission line RLGC model comes from unit length transmission line equivalent circuit, in which each element has its own physical meaning, = =3D it should help you to interpret. The main difference between distributed element and lumped element is = =3D the propagation/flying time, where there is no flying time for lumped =3D element, while flying time is taken into consideration for distributed element. While for package model, under assumption the electrical length of interconnects inside package is less than one tenth of wavelength, we = =3D can treat them as lumped element. R represents interconnects conductor loss, = =3D L represents interconnects inductance, C represent the interconnects capacitance, G is negligeable here. Hope it helps! Regards, Rui Yang Hardware R&D Dept., CPD., HUAWEI TECHNOLOGIES CO.,LTD. huawei_logo Address: Huawei Industrial Base Bantian Longgang Shenzhen 518129, P.R.China Tel: +86-0755-89651191 Mobile: +86-13924626970 E-mail: rui_yang@xxxxxxxxxx www.huawei.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------= =3D --- --------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which=3D20 is intended only for the person or entity whose address is listed above. = =3D Any use of the=3D20 information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial=3D20 disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended=3D20 recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by=3D20 phone or email immediately and delete it! -----=3DD3=3DCA=3DBC=3DFE=3DD4=3DAD=3DBC=3DFE----- =3DB7=3DA2=3DBC=3DFE=3DC8=3DCB: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =3DB4=3DFA=3DB1=3DED xuzhengrong =3DB7=3DA2=3DCB=3DCD=3DCA=3DB1=3DBC=3DE4: = 2008=3DC4=3DEA5=3DD4=3DC220=3DC8=3DD5 11:43 =3DCA=3DD5=3DBC=3DFE=3DC8=3DCB: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =3DB3=3DAD=3DCB=3DCD: '=3DD1=3DCF=3DBA=3DBD' =3DD6=3DF7=3DCC=3DE2: [SI-LIST] single RLC parameters at a certain = frequency Hi, To simplify the model, we often extract single RLGC parameters from the s-parameter model at a certain frequency. I wonder what on earth the meaning of the single frequency parameters = =3D is. First, if the parameters only represent the magnitude and phase of the S-parameter model at the frequency point, it may have different =3D combinations of RLGC to reach the same goal, what's the method or principle? Second, if the parameters are meaningful at a certain frequency, why can single RLGC parameters often be used to estimate characteristic of =3D package model such as IBIS? =3D20 In my opinion, for example, the single RLGC model should be the =3D first-order approximation to the real model for transmission line, as Eric's book 'Signal Integrity: Simplified' said. It is equivalent to the real model within low frequency range and we can = =3D use it if the signal frequency component is within the range. However, if the RLGC model extracted at a certain frequency is only meaningful for the extracting frequency, it isn't the first-order approximation for the transmission line. So we can't use it as the first-order approximation and estimate its low frequency characteristic.=3D20 Appreciate any idea and discussion for the problem. Best Regards, Zhengrong=3D20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: =3D20 //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu =3D20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: =20 //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu