[roc-chat] Re: My Response: Youth Groups, TARC, and CAP

  • From: Phil Laisure <pal129@xxxxxxx>
  • To: "roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 20:54:59 -0700

Greetings!
      I've been reading the e-mails about this issue, and have some thoughts 
regarding the youth groups, etc.
     I was a member of Civil Air Patrol for 20 years, the last 13 of which I've 
been teaching rocketry to various units.  One of the things I tried to do in 
addition to teaching cadets to build and fly a model rocket, was to build a 
large group project.  My thoughts were to teach teamwork as well as advanced 
construction techniques that are used for larger rockets.  Some of them had 
never used power tools, and none of them had every fiberglassed anything 
before.  As some of you know, I've had several projects over the years.
     Prior to, and at each launch, I preached safety to them, going over all 
the things that needed (or didn't need) to be done, and what to watch for.
      I think one of the main problems with the youth groups, is that there is 
NOT a rocketeer in their midst.  The Boy Scouts are there for a camping trip, 
and the rockets are for some merit badge or other.  The Civil Air Patrol cadet 
program also has a rocketry program with a badge awarded upon completion.
     What I'm getting at here, is that some of these youth groups are there to 
check off a box.  And, there is no one in that group, unit, squadron, etc., 
that knows the first thing about rocketry, other than what they've read on the 
assembly stuff.  I think this may be the main problem with the youth groups.
     I also think that ROCtober is a great idea.  The concept, as I understand 
it, is to have a launch mainly for the youth groups.  I may be able to help 
with this, let me know.
      Hopefully I haven't wandered off on some tangent here.  

Phil Laisure 


On Friday, August 22, 2014 3:26 PM, Rick Dickinson <rtd@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
  


Everyone,

I've been holding back from joining in this discussion, to have a
      better chance to see what other folks had to say.  As board
      members, sometimes it seems like people defer to our opinions
      because we have some special status or something -- for the most
      part, we don't.  We're just like the rest of you: club members. 
      We've just volunteered to be slightly more involved with a few of
      the details than most folks.  We don't have any magical insight,
      or have a more valid point of view than anyone else -- we're just
      doing our best as we see it.

In any case, it seems there's a rather wide gamut of opinions. 
      Some folks feel we ought to concentrate more on high power, and
      others want us to get more involved with some or all of the youth
      groups.  Meeting everyone's needs is a balancing act, and we don't
      always get it right....

In any case, the board has been paying attention, and we've
      definitely been discussing this issue at our meetings, as well. 
      The opinions, as you might expect, as similarly varied within the
      board, itself, and very few actual conclusions have been reached.

With that said, I'd like to explain my personal thoughts, and get
      feedback on them from the rest of you:

I love all types of rocketry.  I'm a Level 3 TRA and NAR member,
      and also serve on the NAR L3CC.  Despite that, I also love flying
      the occasional model rocket, and I'd say I've probably flown many
      more H motors than any other size over the years.  My opinion is
      that, unless we actively recruit young folks into the hobby, the
      hobby will eventually die out (along with us older rocketeers --
      I've lost far too many friends over the last 15+ years in the
      hobby).

I personally love to see youth groups (scout, CAP, whatever) at
      our launches, because not only do the kids get to fly their Estes
      kits, they also get to see the bigger stuff, and many of them (and
      their parents) get hooked, and keep coming back.  Plus, the look
      in their faces when they see a J, K, or larger motor go up is
      priceless!

However, managing the large numbers is a headache, and we do come
      out behind, financially, supporting them.  The "buck a head"
      charges don't come close to covering any extra porta-potties we
      rent when we have a number of youth groups coming, for example.

The solution that I, personally, favor is twofold:

1) First, we raise the fees for youth groups.  We don't want to
      make it too pricey and keep them away, but we do want them to
      cover a larger portion of the costs of supporting their presence. 
      I don't have a good idea of exactly how high it needs to be, but I
      don't think 5 bucks a head would be unreasonable.  After all,
      that's about half the price of a single pack of C motors. 
      Basically, we want to make it cheap enough not to discourage them
      from coming, but still high enough that they cover most of the
      extra costs that we incur as a result of their presence.

2) Second, I'd only allow the discount to be given to youth groups
      that pre-arrange their attendance with the club at least a week in
      advance, and who show up with all of their necessary liability
      waivers pre-signed and ready on the day of the launch.  That way,
      we can control their numbers, and limit the number of groups we
      have on-site at each launch to a manageable amount that won't
      overwhelm the volunteers. By having their liability waivers all
      taken care of in advance, they won't bog things down at
      Registration, either.  Any groups that don't pre-arrange their
      attendance, and show up with their forms signed and ready, would
      pay the usual per-person launch fees, with no discount.

By doing these two things, I think we could keep things much more
      manageable, and keep the rest of the flyers happy.  Supporting the
      next generation of rocketeers is critical to the ongoing health of
      the hobby, but we can't drive away the current flyers to do so, or
      we're losing more than we gain.

I still want to see ROCtober continue.

As an outreach event, it is unparalleled. If and when Mike Kramer
      steps down from running it (which may be this year, or may already
      have happened -- Mike?), I'd like to encourage someone else to
      step up and take over "ownership" of it.  We need someone with
      experience with scouting or other youth organizations to be in
      charge, as knowing the ins and outs of what it takes to get a
      troop or other group to attend is a big part of the outreach job. 
      I would be glad to help out as a second-in-command to someone like
      that, but I don't know enough, myself, to do the really important
      part -- talking with the youth group leaders on terms that they
      understand.

I welcome any comments or suggestions.  The ROC board will
      continue to grapple with these issues, and suggestions and
      assistance from the rest of the membership are critical to the
      process.

Thanks for your help!

Cheers,

Rick Dickinson


On 8/22/2014 12:25 PM, R Dierking wrote:
 
 
>I'm going to try to address many of the things people said including their 
>questions directly to me.  And, don't mind elaborating on any particular point 
>if you wish.  This is a complicated matter.
> 
>Many hobby stores sell model rockets but don't help people with ways to launch 
>them.  Wow, is that true!  Recently, I suggested that TRA develop a brochure 
>like NAR's to try to reach some of these potential rocket enthusiasts.  I'm 
>also working on a new ROC flyer for Board review and plan to spend some time 
>at hobby stores in Temecula and Murrieta helping people that are interested in 
>rocketry.  Many of us discovered rocketry at hobby stores and if I have some 
>success I suggest other people try this.  People that go to hobby stores are 
>excellent candidates for our club.
> 
>I think our club's price structure for youth groups needs serious revision.  
>Often income from youth groups isn't enough to cover the portable toilets they 
>use.  
> 
>Yes, I think we should manage youth groups.  I'm not suggesting eliminating 
>youth groups or low power, just achieving a balance between the available 
>human and equipment resources we have and the number of people that are 
>looking for a service.  We are a club first and must consider the desires of 
>the people in the club before commitment to others.  This isn't work; everyone 
>should have free time at launches and having to work long shifts, begging for 
>relief then having to walk away from a position, or continually hearing that 
>the range is going to be shutdown if someone doesn't fill a position is 
>irritating.
> 
>We must balance the number of and size of large groups with the
        available help to safely run the launch and have a good time
        doing it.  Inadequate help is not safe at a rocket launch.  I've
        heard many different proposals on how to reduce the size of
        lines or spit the range or whatever at launches but in the end
        you still have three people to run it.
> 
>About kids from schools and whether Scouts are less important:  For a rocket 
>club with limited resources if it's between a group specifically doing a 
>rocket project or a group of kids just doing another activity, the rocket 
>group is more important.  All youth groups should have at least one person 
>that knows the expectations of our club and is willing to help running the 
>launch.
> 
>Why couldn't CAP run a launch?  Instead of just showing kids how we do it, why 
>not provide them with the experience?  Learning about launch equipment and 
>running the range is a very important part of rocketry.
> 
>There's nothing to my knowledge in the by-laws prohibiting loaning launch 
>equipment.  Some TARC groups have their own launch equipment and others that 
>are just starting are not well equipped.  TARC teams need more help in 
>California.  I'm only volunteering myself and if others in our club want to 
>help we should get together.
> 
>Finally, ROCtober.  Some of you knew this was coming.  ;-)
>I've now heard many people suggest it's just going to die.  Wow,
        this seems harsh, but for example, at the last one it would be
        very easy for me to list the people that signed up for range
        duty on Saturday morning.  Yup.  This year it sounds like there
        will even be less, which is really bad.
>So, I think it's time to say it was great and did a lot of
        good.  Some people, like Payton and Mike Kramer, worked very
        hard at it and often compensated for the help they needed but it
        wasn't there.
>I realize that there's a fundamental difference in opinion over
        quantity verses quality when it comes to running a launch and
        maybe even a club.  Some people want the most people to have the
        experience.  I see their point and understand based on their own
        experience.  However, for me, it's the quality of the
        experience.  I would rather have more time with 20 kids than
        have to rush with 100.  From my experience it's not only less
        stressful for everyone, but more substantial.  Now, I would like
        other people to say they know what I mean.
> 
>If the Board (with membership support) said, lets go out with ROCtober on a 
>good note, support it well, maybe even celebrate a bit, and go to managing 
>youth groups on a monthly basis, I bet that many people would chip in one more 
>time for the Gipper.  
>Mike, have you ever been called the Gipper?  
> 
>Richard Dierking
> 
>    
> 
> 
>

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