Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
- From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:57:45 +0300
Rick, you're right in part.
Imagine this scenario:
You are a single person working for different customers as a free lancer.
You pay 1000 $ for a visual studio profesional environment (because the
express edition doesn't allow plugins right? And php on vs can be done only
with plugins).
So you must regain this money from somewhere, so you will increase a little
your price to get the 1000 $ back.
On the other hand, other person like you on the market, gets eclipse and can
do the same thing with it.
Eclipse is for free.
For this reason his price is less than yours.
What the customer will choose?
About the express editions:
Don't support plugins and addins, so you are fixed on "out of the box "
features.
This doesn't include php.
You don't have a lot of cool features from vs full edition:
1. Refactoring options are missing (things like encapsulate fields, the
feature which writes for you a property after you've added a field to a
class).
2. No setup projects (I realy like the setup projects in vs full edition,
the one which gets the project output from your solution and makes an
installer from it).
On the sql express part you have limitations on the number of conections and
on the database dimension.
For this reason you can use them only for small databases/websites.
Because of the price for the tools, the hosting is more expensive on windows
than on linux.
----- Original Message -----
From: "RicksPlace" <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
Hi Black: There are people doing development in various IDES and using
various tools. It almost sounds like you are a Contractor since most
in-house development, except the big guys, tend to use a single platform.
As a pro you use the correct tool for the job or you can not be
competitive in today's insanely competitive market.
If you are developing for a client who wants a cheap system and that is
the primary goal then linux and MySql or another cheap development
platform might work. That said, it will take you longer to develop the
system if it is not a plain jane site. Of course if you have been doing it
for years and saved allot of code that will help this method to be a
viable approach. Otherwise it would be too slow to create specialized UI
controls and, or modify other peoples code. If you want a 3 tier Data
Driven system or MVC or other major work you are light years better off
with one of the major ides since your client is not fooling around and can
afford a couple of bucks extra for a ASP host. Of course there is the
whole Dreamweaver thingy but that's another story...
So, as you mentioned it all depends on your skill level with each tool and
which tool will fit your client's requirements best. I would go for the
most bang for the buck.
The VS Express modules are not toys. They are a nice development
environment for free and give you access to a host of productivity tools
miles ahead of hand-coding anything related to aWebsite with a Database.
The only real diferences are in the area of Project Control when working
with a group of other programmers from what I understand and if you are on
a team of say 5 or 10 people on a single project you should be able to
afford either VS or some Project Management software.
Anyway, it is far from necessary that a developer work in more than one
platform so long as that platform has jobs connected to it. For individual
contractors it is a good idea to know more than one system but there are
enough jobs in VS or Linux or Apple based OS platforms to keep an
individual international contractor working even if for slave wages.
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "black ares" <matematicianu2003@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
Really?
I didn't see some one using visual studio for php development.
And what you are saying is your point of view, not a professional point
of view.
Technically speaking, on the extreme side, you are right, you can use
what ever ide you want for doing development in what language you want.
But explain me why some one will choose to use a 1000 $ tool (like visual
studio is) to do php development which is a free language.
If you choose to do php development it means that your customer has not
enough money to afford a payed technology, so for sure he/she will not
pay you higher price you have because of the visual studio you use.
How ever, keeping the discussion in the technical view, I reiterate the
fact that I didn't see any one doing php development on visual studio.
Can you show an example please?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Coale" <ccoale427@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
Excuse me? Visual Studio is used extensively for web development by
many, many professionals. Yes, yes you can "hookup with a specific IDE."
HTML, PHP, ASP.net, etc. will all remain the same code no matter which
IDE (or non-IDE) a developer uses.
You are totally wrong saying that just because someone uses Visual
Studio as their IDE, they are bound to use Windows hosting. First of
all, the person's choice of IDE does not determine which web host they
use.
Considering you are a professional in a field, you should know that
HTML, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, ASP.net, etc. is the same language and/or
set of technologies regardless of the IDE you use.
On 8/18/2011 10:20 PM, black ares wrote:
The question is bad from the begining.
You can not ask about a website development tool, giving example vs
2008/2010.
The man enroles in a website evelopment diploma so he aims to become a
professional.
So, as a professional, you can not hook up with a specific ide, because
you must develop according to the project you have.
For this reason sometimes you will find yourself working with php with
mysql, other times with asp.net o n vs 2008/2010 or whatever vs is out
on that time.
So you must manage every of them.
Because, if you learn only on VS, you will be forced to use windows
hosting for example, to buy and pay for the development tools and for
the database tools.
Don't tell me that there are express editions, that ones are toys for
children.
As a professional I must know how to manage eclipse for java/php
development, how to manage vs for dotnet/aspnet development, how to use
notepad or other editor to do xhtml/html layouts and so on.
best regards
----- Original Message ----- From: "RicksPlace" <ofbgmail@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 12:50 PM
Subject: Re: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
From what I have read and seen the VS 2008 or VWD 2008 platform and
the Sql Server or Sql Server Express (R2) versions because they are
newer, are the most accessible development platform if you want a
development IDE.
Otherwise some folks develop in a editor like notepad.
There are a bunch of stand-alone editors for building Websites but
I've not used them so can't speak to accessibility.
I would worry that they would try and do things like the VS Designers
but that they would not have the necessary hooks or scripts to make
them work at all.
Also, if they try and do Intellisense they might have that
inaccessible as well.
Newer versions might use WPF or what ever the newer accessibility
hooks for Linux and may not be accessible.
It is my understanding that the Dreamweaver and other software put out
by that compn=any was suppose to be getting more accessible but I've
not used it and don't know anyone who has used it with a screen
reader.
I guess what I am saying is that I have tried a couple of other things
over the past 10 years or so and not found one that has all the bells
and whistles and is accessible as the VS environment. The 2010 version
of anything put out by Microsoft is not going to be nearly as
accessible as the 2008 versions since the 2010 versions use WPF and
none of the current screen readers support it very well. Also, the
JAWS scripts for VS will not work properly with 2010 versions.
It is likely your instructor will have you using whatever the class
uses but if not you can either stay with what you know or try
something new - it's up to you in that case.
You could try developing using another IDE and, or, get into stuff
like PHP and MySql using some kind of Website development environment
but I have never looked at any of them.
Others might have some suggestions on either hand-coding everything
using text editors or using another platform like Dreamweaver or some
Linux based system.
Later Marv and good luck:
Rick USA
----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Hunkin"
<startrekcafe@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 5:52 PM
Subject: website and programming tools and acessibility with jaws
hi.
well enrolling in a diploma in website development.
and developing a website.
now what web site development tools, and which programming tools
which works best with Jaws?
visual basic, visual web developer, c#, dream weaver, vs 2008, or
2010.
which works best with jaws?
marvin.
ps: will take your more expertise in this area.
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