RE: Programming Preferences Was RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

Never say never I was cited in the Air force and a communication specialist
and thought I would be in for life.  Now I am a 100% blind programmer so
life is never a sure thing.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Øyvind Lode
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 8:04 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Programming Preferences Was RE: I feel like giving up on
programming altogether!

I'm actually trying to learn to program on my own.
I started out only armed with my own ego and a tutorial on C# and did my
coding in edsharp and compiled my code using the command line tools.
I've also played a bit with Visual C# Express as the IDE.
I've not given up, but I have realized that I'll never end up as a
programmer...

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stanzel, Susan -
Kansas City, MO
Sent: 1. juli 2010 13:40
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: Programming Preferences Was RE: I feel like giving up on
programming altogether!

Hi Listers,

I have been a COBOL programmer since graduating from college in 1971. I got
a business degree with an emphasis in computer science after taking all 31
hours offered in those days. My second job has been working for the United
States Department of Agriculture since 1974. Most of this time has been
using COBOL and a very easy language called Easytrieve which could make
quick searches of files and then reports. Off and on since 2001 I have been
trying to learn Java. Two years ago I went to a new place within Agriculture
and my boss has been very supportive. I had the luxury of coding in NotePad
which really taught me to put in all the brackets, braces, and parenthesis
in the right place. Now I am trying to use Eclipse because that is the ide
of choice. Saying all this is to only say that a basic education will never
hurt you. To get a programming position using Java in the United States will
need Java certification. In my experience you must make sure you have as
much education as possible with the highest grades and certification to get
a job. Being blind you must prove you are among the best and the brightest
to find work. I can't imagine learning any of this as a hobby. (grin).

Susie Stanzel
Programmer U.S.D.A. in Kansas City Missouri

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Homme, James
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 6:26 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Programming Preferences Was RE: I feel like giving up on
programming altogether!

Hi,
With Visual Basic, you can put the statement
option explicit
At the beginning of your program, and the compiler will force you to declare
variables.

Also, if you get one of the fruit basket programs, you will see how some of
the code behind the IDE works.

So your statement about the evils of VB and buttons and controls in  an IDE
are not completely accurate, but, I agree with you that if you take away
that part of the learning curve, that it's easier to program when you are
concentrating on your code.

But I can also see that some of what Rick says is valid. The IDE puts in
code for you that you'd have to keep a book open to find and learn to use,
and it knows which files to hook together when you make the various projects
and it helps organize your code. That's very convenient, but it doesn't
teach you how some of the  code works.

Ken, I tried to go from Cobol to C++ back in the Borland C++ days, and I
didn't make it over the hump, so I admire you for learning that language. I
felt that no matter how hard I tried, I just wasn't ready to do pointers and
learn classes and garbage collection and whatever else that goes with it.

I learned HTML by using FrontPage and NoteTab and letting them generate the
code, then seeing it, and realizing that it wasn't that difficult. After
that, I started doing it by hand. Because I learned to code HTML by hand, I
understand it, and I understand what a program that generates it is doing to
it. I have the best of both worlds, I can generate some to save time, and I
can write some by hand when I want it just right.

So I say that whatever learning style works best for you is just fine, as
long as you don't talk yourself out of learning.

I kind of started to sneak up on learning about objects by using LotusScript
to call methods and get properties of Lotus Notes objects, and I also have
made several attempts at Python, but so far, I've talked myself out of going
the whole way for whatever reason.

I think that we can do whatever we talk ourselves into doing. And I think we
can give up just because we tell ourselves that something is too hard. But I
think we can trick ourselves into succeeding by just doing the first thing,
then the next, then the next, until before we realize it, we've done a big
thing.

So perhaps the approach would be to learn a language of choice with the use
of a text editor, while learning enough about the compiler to understand
what it's trying to tell you. Then, if you decide to switch over to an IDE,
you will understand more of what it's trying to do, and in the long run,
save yourself some hair pulling.

As far as building forms goes, Jamal has made it a lot easier for all of us
to do that with Layout By Code. So those of us, hint to Jim, who say that
they want to learn a language and do some programming are quickly running
out of excuses.

We have JAWS and Window-eyes scripts for Visual Studio, and we have a doable
environment with a plain old editor, so let's make a pact to just do it.

I'm in.

Jim

Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility
here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice


-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf of Alex Midence
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 12:19 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

Hi, folks,

This thread hit sorta close to home for me.  As I have mentioned
Before, I, myself, am learning how to code and I decided to hop out of
the proverbial airplane because my language of choice is c++.  I began
with visual studio simply because it was the first compiler and ide I
found that was easy to get to in google and that was free.  I figured
it'd work best because it was made by the very people who made the
operating system.  I then attempted to apply what I was learning from
various tutorials in this ide and came to a screeching halt because it
turns out that this ide doesn't produce "standard c++" unleass you
tweak it.  All the tutorials I was following teach standard c++.  I
then hauled off and got eclipse only to find I needed a compiler to go
with it.  Went and got myself minGw and was still not able to compile
because I needed to mess with settings in the eclipse ide that I was
unfamiliar with to let it know where the compiler was and which one to
use.  It wasn't until I just went in and actually wrote my code into a
no frills text editor (notepad, yes, notepad), saved my file as cpp
and then compiled in a command line that I got my program to work.  I
learned a whole lot on the way and look forward to learning more.  The
most fundamental lesson I learned was to just work with the raw code
and command line compiler first before jumping into these ide's.  This
lets me focus on just the language, what it's doing, how it's doig it
and the act of compiling it.  I don't have to worry about a
potentially inaccessible piece of software cutting into my learning of
the code.  And, it appears I'll get a fuller understanding of what's
actually going on because I'm doing so much of it by hand.  It's like
making yourself a batch of refried beans starting with the raw beans,
cooking them in a pot and then frying them afterwards.  You did it all
from scratch instead of just grabbing a can of beans, opening it up
and heating it up on the stove before serving.  Best of all, my
programs have so far worked like the tutorials said they would.  So,
Jess, my advice to you is this:

Get yourself a nice text editor like edSharp, text pad, ps pad or,
even notepad which you already have.  Then, go get yourself a free
compiler in the language you choose.  I chose c++ because it seems to
really force you to learn some nuts and bolts and doesn't have the
feel of some wussy gussied up toy language like visual basic with
pretty buttons and nice forms and icons and all that mess.  It's also
the language that a huge number of applications are written in which
leads me to believe that, once I am done learning the basics, I'll be
able to really do something with it in exchange for all my  bloodsweat
and tears.  You choose whatever one you feel you want to though but,
just stick to the text editor and compiler method for your first
handful of programs and you'll be better off.  Whatever you do,
though, don't give up over visual studio.

Just my two cents as a fellow neophyte.  Hang in there.

Alex


On 6/30/10, Tyler Littlefield <tyler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> It won't compile actually, you missed a comma.
> int main(int argc, char** argv)
> :)
>
>               Thanks,
> Tyler Littlefield
>       http://tds-solutions.net
>       Twitter: sorressean
>
> On Jun 30, 2010, at 9:40 PM, Ken Perry wrote:
>
>> Um how hard is this
>>
>> //myfile.c
>> #include <stdlib.h>
>> #include <stdio.h>
>> Int main (int argc char *arv)
>> {
>> Printf ("hello world");
>> Return (0);
>> }
>>
>> Gcc myfile.c -o myfile
>>
>> There I just wrote a program that will compile in this email.  I didn't
>> need
>> an ide I didn't need to drop buttons what I could focus on was the code.
>> The problem is you are confusing learning to code with learning to
program
>> applications.  Sure I don't want to start my first full blown application
>> writing it at the command line creating the graphical widgets etc.  I do
>> how
>> ever want to start with a simple step by step method.  I could write a
>> simple program to take input in only a couple more lines of code and see
>> the
>> results instantly.  If I get errors the errors would pop up instantly you
>> wouldn't have to hunt for the window they are in.  In c variables must be
>> at
>> the top of every code segment or {} section.  In languages like VB and
c++
>> and C# you can throw in variable declarations any where.  Which is easier
>> to
>> teach someone put your variables here or hey throw them any where and
then
>> try and hunt down where the error is?
>>
>> I could go on but I have had this argument with professors and at least
>> held my own if not won from time to time.  Its great if all you want to
do
>> is make a sited person happy that they made a simple application but if
>> you
>> really trying to teach them to code and to continue to learn to code then
>> you shouldn't lose them in the manusia before they understand what they
>> are
>> doing.
>>
>> Now I chalange you to teach me to write a visual basic application in the
>> next email you write to this list.  Make it write a message to the screen
>> and do it from the IDE.  See how many steps you have to explain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ken
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie
McBride
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:10 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>
>> Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas:
>> 1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then
>> 2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of
>> applications you're coding.
>>
>> It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend
>> learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once
>> folks kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter
>> & instruct the computer to do what they want, then the next logical
>> progression is something like C. But I think learning C initially is
>> rather like what my dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake
>> Michigan in 62 degree water over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not
>> teach me to swim any better or any earlier, believe me.
>>
>> In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught
>> myself Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort
>> patient visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because
>> my crazy billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked
>> well. That is not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some
>> formal programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself
>> previously stood me in very good stead for learning that.
>>
>> Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler
>> intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my
>> $.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa.
>>
>> On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his
>> degree
>>> in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have
>>> taught
>>> when he took hem.  College is not all it's cracked up to be but that is
>>> another argument.
>>>
>>> I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has to.
>> In
>>> fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the
VS
>>> ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to  so I had to get
>> out
>>> of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do.  Heck for
>> that
>>> matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which gets
>> you
>>> out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code.  In fact you can
>>> find
>> a
>>> few examples of this up on the fruit basket page.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM
>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>
>>> Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if it
>> is
>>> for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear... A
>>> person needs to get a good University Education in Computer Programming
>>> or
>> a
>>>
>>> related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional
>>> Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help on
>> list
>>>
>>> with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for
learning
>> to
>>>
>>> do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to
>>> nubes
>>> is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of solving
>>> business, engineering or technical problems into computer code. That is
>>> where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill is mastered then
>> it
>>> becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a
>>> solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done the
>>> former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to become
a
>>> Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their own I assume
>> they
>>>
>>> are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right
>>> mind
>>> would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional
>>> Computer
>>> Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal education - it
>>> just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or two out there
who
>>> did it that way but 99+ percent have taken University Courses if they
>>> work
>>> in the field. Jes said he was working on a project in VS IDE, having
>>> problems and the process I outlined just touched bases with the things
he
>>> needed to ensure he did, and did correctly, to get his project up and
>>> running. The blurb about learning Programming ie... IPO, was just to
>>> start
>>> the brain working in thinking about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3
>>> things that need to be done, sigh, and even that is diferent in today's
>> OOP
>>> world.
>>> Rick USA.
>>> Message -----
>>> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM
>>> Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out
of
>>>> college now days.  They code by the drop button and create if statement
>>>> method.  Have you actually looked at Job listings.  A person that
learns
>>>> to
>>>> code the way you just laid out whether they be sited or blind will be
>>>> the
>>>> bottom of the barrel.  Some jobs asks for Visual studio but a monkey
can
>>>> make a form and add an if statement to it to make a button do
something.
>>>> If
>>>> a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not
>>>> getting
>>>> themselves where they can be put out by some new AI programming
language
>>>> that can make the forms straight from  a design chart created by a
>>>> secretary.  That type of coding can be done by anyone.
>>>>
>>>> Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited
>>>> person
>>>> can create a half baked program with them.  They did the same thing to
>> the
>>>> electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that
>>>> taught
>>>> half baked electronics.  Now I am not saying a good electronics person
>>>> or
>>>> a
>>>> good coder can't come from the easy road what I am saying is it is much
>>>> more
>>>> unlikely that one will.
>>>>
>>>> If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an assembled
>>>> language you will understand what is going on.  You shouldn't even
worry
>>>> about the GUI till you know how programs are logically put together and
>>>> why.
>>>> Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram
>> just
>>>> to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting slipperier
>>>> and
>>>> messier because we don't understand what is going on under the engine.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started
>>>> would
>>>> be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how to deal
>>>> with
>>>> pointers, and understand what a register is because in the long run if
>>>> you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog maker you will
>>>> need
>>>> that information and if you think you have become a coder by creating
>> some
>>>> monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that
>>>> job
>>>> you are not even close to ready for.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>
>>>> First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we use
>>>> to
>>>> be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more complex in
>>>> other
>>>>
>>>> ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning
curve.
>>>> You
>>>>
>>>> need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you  will
>> be
>>>> hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock
>>>> concert.
>>>>
>>>> That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure
JAWS,
>>>> again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you can
open
>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly
>> nothing
>>>> to do with creating a computer program using computer statements. And,
>> God
>>>> Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well, you
>>>> will
>>>> be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who get that
>>>> far.
>>>> You absolutely  need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the
>>>> ssimpelest language, vb.net, to start with and create your first Hello
>>>> World
>>>>
>>>> Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of the
>>>> Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a textbox or
>>>> 2
>>>> on
>>>>
>>>> the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code
>>>> for
>>>> the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the
>>>> TextBoxes.
>>>> If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in
>>>> Visual
>>>>
>>>> Studio. I would start with the Vb.net Express module since it does not
>>>> have
>>>> all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to start with.
Once
>>>> you
>>>>
>>>> get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a user,
>>>> Read
>>>> Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input, you have the
>> basic
>>>> understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input /
>>>> Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB you
>> are
>>>> jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you can
>>>> pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up when
>>>> the
>>>> Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough - the tough
>> ask
>>>> questions on list and follow up with more work!
>>>> Rick USA
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM
>>>> Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just want
>>>> to
>>>> be
>>>>
>>>> able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I get
>> are
>>>> errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly!
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> Jes
>>>>
>>>> __________
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>>>> __________
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>>>
>>> __________
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>>> __________
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Change the world--1 deed at a time
>> Jackie McBride
>> Scripting Classes: http://jawsscripting.lonsdalemedia.org
>> homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
>> For technophobes: www.technophoeb.com
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