RE: Looking At Python Programming
- From: Katherine Moss <Katherine.Moss@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 15:21:37 +0000
Oh. I suppose I'll be getting to that eventually. I'm not quite there yet,
but I'd definitely like to embark on that adventure eventually. And thanks for
letting me know that. I had assumed as usual that those different indentations
were for the same purpose. My bad.
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Littlefield, Tyler
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 10:53 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Looking At Python Programming
There are ides that help out with Python, but there is a difference in
formatting code, and python's indentation requirement for blocks.
On 6/5/2011 11:20 PM, Katherine Moss wrote:
> That's the one reason why I fell in love with the way Visual Studio does
> things. It just takes care of the stylistic issues for you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David
> Tseng
> Sent: Monday, June 06, 2011 1:12 AM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Looking At Python Programming
>
> Chris,
>
> Agreed with all of your points; however, I'm not as certain about the rec
> against py braces for those who are venturing into programming for the first
> or even second time.
>
> In general, I'm more inclined to advise new blind programmers to stay focused
> on the actual task of programming (control flow, conditionals, logic, loops,
> etc.) rather than stylistic issues. In python, of course, indentation, a
> traditional style concern, becomes a syntactic feature. The beginner must
> cope with this from the beginning complicating the learning process. Seeing
> the true hierarchical relationship of the code rather than a flat list of
> serial operations takes time and experience. This is of course the right way
> to think of code as it leads one to actually discover how compilers and
> interpreters are implemented.
>
> This isn't to say that blind programmers shouldn't abide by style
> rules --- far from it as it's a basic requirement for working with
> sighted programmers, results in better design/maintainability/clarity,
> etc. It's just that style (of which indentation is only one
> component) doesn't come as naturally for blind coders as it has a basis in
> visual styling. I'd guess that most blind coders I've reviewed have a very
> loose grasp of style. To be honest, I had a loose grip on style until I
> started hacking on common codebases with sighted people.
>
> More branches for thought,
> David
>
> On 6/5/11, Q<q@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> While PyBraces and similar is a generally good idea, I strongly
>> recommend actually getting familiar with the indentation scheme of Python.
>> As David wrote, this is generally quite simple with a screen reader.
>> It has many benefits:
>> . It allows you to code anywhere with Python installed, a far greater
>> subset of computers than that with both Python and PyBraces installed.
>> . When writing in languages which use braces for scope control, such
>> as C, Java, C++, whatever, indentation is still important. If you're
>> working on code that you're sharing with sighted people, the
>> expectation will be that you indent. Python gets you into this habit.
>> . Using indentation alone is generally more efficient for
>> communicating information to a blind person. Observe:
>>
>> def do_something(arg1, arg2): {
>> assert ([isinstance(i, (int, long)) for i in arg1, arg2]) if arg1<
>> arg2: { #Take an action here }
>> else: {
>> #Do something else here
>> }
>> }
>>
>> Compare to:
>>
>> def do_something(arg1, arg2):
>> (one space.) assert ([isinstance(i, (int, long)) for i in arg1,
>> arg2]) if arg1< arg2:
>> (2 spaces.) #do something here
>> (one space.): else:
>> (two spaces.) #Something else
>>
>> I placed in leading parentheses the text which is spoken by the
>> screen reader as you navigate from line to line. Note that if two
>> lines are on the same indentation, the indentation will not be
>> announced. Which makes it really trivial to actually spot where indentation
>> changes.
>> Compare to braces, where you have to keep in your head not only code
>> scope, but what braces go with what, as well as brace matching heuristics.
>> When working in a braced language, I often use comments to indicate
>> what the closing brace signifies. For instance } //Endif, } //end
>> function do_something. This is simply something which is unnecessary
>> when reading an indented language.
>>
>> In short, spend the slight extra time to do it right, and you'll reap
>> the benefits, just like most other things in life, and especially
>> programming.
>>
>> I welcome your thoughts and feedback, Q
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/5/2011 7:02 PM, David Tseng wrote:
>>> As another aside, it's not difficult to write a script (given
>>> whatever screen reader you're using) to announce the indentation of a
>>> given body of text. Just override the say line (prev, current, next)
>>> and do the preprocessing to calculate the space/tabs indent before
>>> speaking the line's contents.
>>>
>>> With that said, not sure why no one's pointed out that Jaws comes
>>> with such a feature already:
>>> Jaws-v,
>>> type "indent"
>>> toggle indent to "indicate".
>>>
>>>
>>> Sucha feature exists in other screen readers as well.
>>>
>>> Finally, though I've not used it, EdSharp and something called the
>>> settings packager contains this so beloved but mysterious
>>> SoundsForStuff sound scheme. Not sure why all the folks on list who
>>> use EdSharp haven't piped up about this, but there you go.
>>> http://empowermentzone.com/EdSharp.htm
>>>
>>> On 6/5/11, Trouble<trouble1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> If you have jaws 8 and up then you have the sound schemes feature.
>>>> There has to be a configuration file for the program being used for
>>>> it to show.
>>>> It will use any sound you give it for what ever action you want it
>>>> to take.
>>>> At 07:48 AM 6/5/2011, you wrote:
>>>>> I originally got it from someone on this list, I think it was James
>>>>> Hommes. No, it does not come with jaws by default. However, you can
>>>>> tell jaws to speak indentation if you have no other option.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/5/11, Oriol Gómez<ogomez.s92@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> Where is this sounds4stuff scheme? I don't htink ti comes with jaws.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/5/11, Ken Perry<whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>> You will learn to not make mistakes like this over time but as a
>>>>>>> starter you might want to use the ed sharp command to change your
>>>>>>> python from normal to braces then look at the output. It will
>>>>>>> help you find the problem by failing to put braces where you
>>>>>>> think they should be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Harmony Neil
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 4:38 PM
>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: Looking At Python Programming
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't remember if attachments are permitted on this list or
>>>>>>> not, so I apologize in advance. I've been looking at functions
>>>>>>> and stuff in the python tutorials and although I copied them
>>>>>>> character for character, as far as I know, I get an error saying
>>>>>>> that there is an unexpected indentation.
>>>>>>> Would
>>>>>>> anyone be able to let me know if you find any problems with the
>>>>>>> indentation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Harmony.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
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>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>> Alex (msg sent from GMail website)
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--
Take care,
Ty
my website:
http://tds-solutions.net
my blog:
http://tds-solutions.net/blog
skype: st8amnd127
My programs don't have bugs; they're randomly added features!
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