Re: Re[2]: EM access to developers
- From: William Robertson <william@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Oracle-L (E-mail)" <oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2015 09:38:11 +0000
Absolutely agree. We (DB dev team) do not want to manage the database and
we certainly should not have CREATE JOB privilege on production, but what
we most certainly do need is a graphical performance dashboard giving an
overview of instance status and allowing drill-down into execution plan
history, SQL monitoring, day-on-day load comparisons and so on. Poking
about in TOAD for misleading execution plans is so far from adequate it's
not even funny.
Shops vary of course, and perhaps in some there is a DBA responsible for
everything database-related, staring across the hall at a database-agnostic
C# dev horde who want as little to do with the persistence dump as humanly
possible. However there are also sites where DB developers do PL/SQL, BI,
Perl and job scheduling and we need to know why the batch is overrunning or
the UI is not responding. This is partly for the level 3 production support
rota and UAT, but also for continuous performance improvement feeding back
into development. It would also assist the application support team in
deciding how to route tickets. (Nobody gets paged at 2am any more - we have
teams in 4 time zones.) The DBA teams are responsible for the stuff Iggy
mentioned - configuration, availability, upgrades, installations, backups
etc - for multiple systems, and aren't involved in application or batch
details unless there is some deeper problem that needs investigation, where
of course we value their expertise.
One of the things people say about Oracle is it's complicated and hard
while SQL Server for example has friendly desktop tools. As a career Oracle
specialist I can't say how they compare, but I strongly suspect a clear,
informative and above all brightly coloured web dashboard would go a long
way towards reassuring switchers and decision makers that they've got
something amazing for their money.
William Robertson
On 31 Jan 2015, at 04:24, Peter Sharman <pete.sharman@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> This is not your father's Enterprise Manager.
This is the key point. Nearly all of the discussion I’ve seen in this
thread that mentions EM12c as a database management tool is just plain
wrong – sorry to be as blunt as that, but then again I am an Aussie! ;)
EM12c is much more than a database management tool. It’s an Oracle data
center management tool. If you don’t believe me, go to the OTN page for EM
(http://otn.oracle.com/oem) and look at the left hand side bar. Database
management is just of many areas the product covers. Whether you use it to
its full potential or not is up to you, but if you only use it for database
management you are doing both yourself and your organization a great
disservice.
Let the flame wars continue! J
Pete
<image001.jpg>
Pete Sharman
Database Architect, DBaaS
Enterprise Manager Product Suite
33 Benson Crescent CALWELL ACT 2905 AUSTRALIA
Phone: +61262924095 | | Fax: +61262925183 <fax:+61262925183> | | Mobile:
*+61414443449*
------------------------------
"Controlling developers is like herding cats."
Kevin Loney, Oracle DBA Handbook
"Oh no, it's not, it's much harder than that!"
Bruce Pihlamae, long term Oracle DBA
------------------------------
*From:* kellyn.potvin@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:kellyn.potvin@xxxxxxxxx
<kellyn.potvin@xxxxxxxxx>]
*Sent:* Saturday, January 31, 2015 2:30 PM
*To:* Mladen Gogala
*Cc:* Oracle-L (E-mail)
*Subject:* Re[2]: EM access to developers
Mladen,
You proceeded to read one out of about every five words I wrote. Sharing
knowledge is how we are all more successful. I know a number of developers
I was told, "they'll never learn any new tricks..." and yet after learning
how to make the most of performance data, were able to produce better code
in less time.
For those that asked, EM Express is an excellent performance tool to allow
Developers to view the resource demands and wait events in database
environments, but that is a product fully installed on the user database
and no management agent. It doesn't have many of the management features
that DBAs liked in it's predecessor, DBConsole, but it was never meant to
be. With EM12c the product has far grown past just a DBA management tool-
features like database replay, (RUEI), middleware features, cloud
management pack features like Database as a Service that let's the DBA
automate many of the tedious tasks of provisioning and schema refreshes so
they can be free to do more interesting work that provides the business,
with a self-service portal for developers, PM's, etc. submitting requests.
This is so all of IT can be more successful, not just DBAs. Kyle already
knows this, Delphix offers a similar product as DBaaS, freeing up DBAs so
they are no longer viewed as roadblocks and lessen resource constraints.
This is not your father's Enterprise Manager.
Kellyn
Sent from myMail for iOS
Friday, January 30, 2015, 8:07 PM -0700 from Mladen Gogala <
dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
Responses in-line:
On 01/30/2015 09:37 PM, kellyn.potvin@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
>
>
> I saw too many IT departments remove DBA roles from their staff
> because DBAs were viewed as roadblocks to project success.
So have I. The IT departments that have done so have never succeeded, in
the long run.
> Attend a conference like ODTUG's KSCOPE and you'll hear this story so
> often from the developers that it will make you realize that the "us
> vs. them" scenario is making DBAs a liability instead of an asset.
DBA is the guardian of the production database, the person ultimately
responsible for its performance and availability. If the developer wants
to put a huge full table scan in an OLTP application and use PQ to
resolve it quickly, it's the DBA job to prevent that from happening,
because such query would consume resources needed for other programs. I
used to work as a production DBA in a companies with several thousands
of online users, using web applications. If DBA doesn't exercise a tight
control over the database, performance will ultimately become sluggish
for everybody. And that is a resume generating event. It's my job to
prevent that from happening.
> Steven Feuerstein often asks in his sessions, "of the DBAs in here,
> how many grant access to performance views in Enterprise Manager?" I'm
> often the only one who raises their hand and the common excuse is, "If
> we grant them access, then they'll be able to see things" Really.
Of course they will be able to see things, but would they be able to
interpret them correctly? Performance tuning requires certain training
and certain mindset. Developers are rarely trained for performance
tuning. From my experience, they don't show too much interest in the
performance analysis. You would be surprised to learn how many
developers still think in terms of buffer cache hit ratios.
>
> Well, here's the way I see it. No DBA has any excuse for complaining
> about the quality of code released in production if they aren't
> willing to provide developers and testing the same access to view
> performance data in tools such as Enterprise Manager as they have.
Why is that? What would you achieve by giving an access to trace files
to the person who doesn't know how to analyze them? What would you
achieve by giving access to all those performance monitors to the people
who are not sure how to interpret them? Instead of a diagnosis we would
get a debate about the meaning of the monitoring data.
> With more and more companies moving towards Agile, more companies
> using scrum masters/scrum collaboration, it is essential for everyone
> to understand the challenges they are up against and truly work as a team.
Agile is frequently used incorrectly and becomes the source of the
problem. The financial appeal of Agile is cutting the costs of QA. The
end result is frequently spewing large quantities of code, without DBA
being able to influence it. About 3 years ago, I resigned my DBA
position at a company which was doing Agile, precisely because of that.
There was an application code in the SYS schema. I am not a big fan of
Agile.
--
Mladen Gogala
Oracle DBA
http://mgogala.freehostia.com
--
//www.freelists.org/webpage/oracle-l
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