RE: Grid ... Was: Is RAC DOA?
- From: "Karniotis, Stephen" <Stephen.Karniotis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:56:22 -0400
Mogens with eloquence.
One of the most significant issues with Grid is the ability to transfer
entire IT environments to support it. We're talking about =
centralization of
all resources so that servers, disks, networks, databases, routers, =
etc.
become "services" that can be utilized at a moments notice. The fact =
of
reality is that will never occur in most IT environments. The concept
sounds good the costs are extremely high.
Thank You
Stephen P. Karniotis
Compuware Corporation
Direct: (313) 227-4350
Toll Free: (800) 462-7740 ext. 74350
Mobile: (248) 408-2918
Email: Stephen.Karniotis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
Web: www.compuware.com=20
-----Original Message-----
From: oracle-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx =
[mailto:oracle-l-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Mogens N=F8rgaard
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 4:56 PM
To: oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Grid ... Was: Is RAC DOA?
Fundamentally, it's always a problem when a lot of bright people don't=20
understand immediately what a vendor means by a certain word.
It's either because it's so incredibly revolutionary in its entire=20
concept that the bright people, who usually understand most of what=20
comes out from this vendor, are left by the wayside. Or it's because=20
it's not what the vendor claims it is.
So let's say that the Grid idea is completely, utterly revolutionary,=20
and that most of us - for the first time in our Oracle-lives - don't=20
understand it. The amazing thing is that all Oracle-employees seem to=20
understand it (although they all have different ways of explaining what =
it is and what it really consists of). This proves that Oracle's=20
employees are way, way smarter (not just smarter) than people not=20
employed by Oracle.
I'm not saying this is not the case. I'm just saying it's an amazing=20
fact in itself. I've argued before, that the general feeling inside=20
Oracle is that people outside of its firewalls are not, uhm, the=20
Einsteins of the World. In fact, I've noticed that the second people=20
walk out of Oracle's door to start a new job outside of Oracle, they=20
immediately become rather dim. Something happens in that door, Mladen!
The Grid is not a product, it's a concept. Well, that's nice. And I'm=20
sure saying that transportable tablespaces and RAC and various queueing =
stuff allows you to construct a grid is true. But it becomes a sort of=20
circular argumentation. I'm pretty sure that just as we see the Oracle=20
RAC folks making fun of OPS today, a couple of years from now some=20
Oracle folks will make fun of the Grid they are telling people to=20
believe in today.
You can't buy something called a "grid" from Oracle. You can buy =
various=20
technologies from Oracle which allows you to put something together=20
which Oracle will then declare to be "a grid".
So the vision is to deliver computing resources like water or=20
electricity is being delivered today, where various producers can=20
supplement each other.
I do find fault with this comparison, which in my view is one of the=20
worst over-simplifications ever done by the S&M people of the World.
Imagine a world (Planet) where you're told that the current (sorry, =
joke=20
un-intended) electricity you're using is out-dated. You will need to go =
to the newer version of electricity, which happens to be 342 Volts and=20
42 Amps - and the plugs in your wall will need to be "upgraded" to a =
new=20
model with seven different sized and shaped thingies to fit into each =
other.
Imagine a Planet where you're informed that Water version 1 is not=20
really the future. Instead, Water version 2 will be delivered beginning =
of next Summer, and version 1 will no longer be supported. Version 2=20
will require a few changes in your house: First of all, you'd better =
get=20
used to the fact, that only hot water will be delivered. No cold water=20
anymore - but we suggest you buy an extra cold-water server for this=20
purpose in case you still require this out-dated service. Second, since =
you will no longer need to have special handles for hot and cold water, =
it is suggested to change all your appliances to new, more sturdy types =
that can take all the hot water (which, by the way, comes with a much=20
higher pressure, so better check the state of your pipes).
IT is not like that. One day it might be, but I really cannot imagine=20
how it can be that. Requires much vodka.
Shifting resources is not a simple task, and many things have to be=20
considered. I'm sure Oracle is busy finding out how to address a lot of =
these mysterious and wonderful possibilities. But it's stretching it a=20
byte and a bit declaring this to be a ready-to-buy thing.
When the explanation for something apparently very technical is filled=20
with S&M buzzwords there's a reason.
Mogens
MacGregor, Ian A. wrote:
> I'm a bit confused here. Hereogeneous means of different origin. I
thought inside a cluster things had to be the same. They had to be
homogeneous; i.e., of the same origin. I also thought the problem with
Oracle is that you need to create a single large cluster instead of
allowing you to have multiple clusters which can communicate with each
other. So with the Orcle grid software, when you learn of hardware =
vendor
going out of the machine business, and you can buy scores or hundreds =
of
machines on the cheap. You have to pass.
>=20
>=20
> Ian MacGregor
> Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
> ian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Fink [mailto:Daniel.Fink@xxxxxxx]=20
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 11:46 AM
> To: oracle-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Is RAC DOA?
>=20
> Extend that question into the realm of 'grid' computing. RAC requires =
a
heterogeneous environment within the cluster. This means that a RAC =
cluster
is not really grid friendly. It is only able to 'shift' processing
requirements within itself and cannot take advantage of that =
underutilized
server sitting next to it in the data center. I asked this question of =
an
Oracle employee recently and the response was that RAC does indeed fit =
into
Oracle's grid strategy, but there are not any plans to enable a =
homogenous
RAC system. Am I missing something?
>=20
> Daniel
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Jesse, Rich wrote:
>=20
>>I'll add that until <buzzword>hetergeneous clusters</buzzword> are
supported, your availability is only good until your next patch =
(Oracle, OS,
or 3rd party). When you patch one, you most likely need to patch all =
at the
same time. In the case of Oracle patches, it's mandatory at least thru =
9.2.
>>Rich
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 10:48 AM
>>Subject: RE: Is RAC DOA?
>>
>>
>>One slight quibble, regarding increased availability.
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>mwf
>=20
>=20
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