[ola] Re: Complete sentences
- From: JoAnna Coleman <joannac@xxxxxxx>
- To: "ola@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <ola@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 16:07:47 +0000
Thomas and Arnold - thanks to both of you -
I use performance based assessment in my classes, I am not professionally
trained to do OPIs nor do I have the time to dedicate (20 min/student) to do an
authentic OPI interviews, but I do sit down for 5-6 minutes with each student
to assess their language every 4-6 weeks (3 times this semester).
Everything you both say makes sense and reaffirms what I am doing - Thomas, you
voiced concern about the accuracy of their language - keep in mind, these are
totally memorized phrases that students have learned with gestures, that is the
only reason for accuracy - they are not applying any grammar rules to any of
what they're saying (since they don't know any!)
Whenever I teach vocab, I try to teach it more in a story/poem/chant/song
format, so instead of just learning "Me despierto, me levanto" as isolated
phrases in a list, they learn "Primero, me despierto a las seis y entonces me
levanto lentamente, etc..."
Students know what's coming and know I will be asking relevant follow up
questions - following the format of class practice
Thanks again!!!
JoAnna Coleman
Spanish Teacher
Wilson High School
503-916-5280 ext. 75231
joannac@xxxxxxx
http://profecoleman.wordpress.com/
________________________________________
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<inashland@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 6:23 AM
To: ola@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ola] Complete sentences
JoAnna -
Thomas had a very good response for you. Let me be a bit more verbose as I
wait for the sun to heat up before I get to the beach.
Maybe you are mixing up terms. The samples you gave are, indeed, sentences.
There is no question they are complete and full Intermediate-like sentences.
The question is not really, are they sentences, as much as is this
performance or proficiency. This is, as you pointed out, stuff the kids have
been working on. So they produce this flawless strings of sentences.
Perfect! This is what you would expect them to do after having worked on
this unit (call it what you will) and recognizing it as PERFORMANCE is
exactly right. Performance is an indication of what a student MIGHT be able
to do in a "proficiency" assessment. As you build student performance
covering more and more themes (units, whatever) the student gradually moves
into proficiency. Performances are the building blocks of proficiency.
Do not confuse the performance you gave as an example of saying that the
student has proficiency at the Intermediate level. What you can say is, on
this task, on this topic, the student showed evidence of Intermediate-like
performance. The follow-up questions are exactly what you should be doing to
push them to continue to show if they can sustain performance at level.
Were I conducting an OPI, and I asked a student about their daily routine,
and I got the language you gave as an example, I would recognize it as
rehearsed and practiced/memorized material. Nothing wrong with that. But I
would continue to follow up taking her outside of that memorized material
to. "OK, well, tell me about a typical school day. What is the whole day
like?" followed-up with questions from material she gave me. She may have
mentioned she has math at 10 A.M. and say "ugh!" I would have asked, "well,
tell me about that class. What is it you don't like about it? Tell me about
the teacher." And that would eventually lead to comparison of a week day to
a weekend day. Then we go on to talk about her city, her activities, blah
blah. Now - that is outside of memorized material: that would be
proficiency.
But what if your kids showed at-level Intermediate performance over a
variety of topics after the course of the year? Might all of that then
become part of their natural lexicon? Might that then become proficiency? Me
thinks it likely.
Performance is the path to proficiency. Recognize it for what it is and
celebrate it!
Now, about the "chunk" of language, it is a totally natural answer. Ask me
how often I wash what little hair I have and if I were to answer "every day"
that is a natural, native-like response. Nothing wrong with it. Let your
students know that this is natural language but your want them to use
sentences to demonstrate to you what they can do. Or, you need to rephrase
the questions. Somebody pointed out that there is nothing wrong with asking
a closed-ended question (it is a set-up) as long as it is followed up.
Q: "Do you live in a house or an apartment?"
A: "A house."
Q: "Is the house big or small?"
A: "Small."
Q: "What is your favorite room?"
A: "My bedroom."
I can't tell you how many times I hear this above exchange between a teacher
and a student and the teacher thinks the kid is functioning at Intermediate.
How about:
Q: "Do you live in a house or an apartment?"
A: "A house."
Q: "describe your house for me." - now, we get to see if they can actually
DO something with the language.
My guess is that when you give the kid the questions they are ready for, and
they produce all the language you gave in an example, and you follow up with
a question that they have not been preparing for (same topic but a different
twist) you are not trying to trip them up. You are trying to push them to
create with the language. Intermediate speakers CREATE with the language to
give personal meaning to a message. What does CREATE mean? Combining and
recombining learned material to give personal meaning to a message. So by
providing them with those opportunities, you are helping them gain that
skill. Will you get breakdown? Of course. That is part of the package.
Performance is perfect.....proficiency can get messy as we move from one
level to the next. So don't punish for the breakdown when you are pushing.
OK, enough of my blabbing. Time to get to the beach!
Arnold
-----Original Message-----
From: FreeLists Mailing List Manager [mailto:ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2014 12:05 AM
To: ola digest users
Subject: ola Digest V3 #16
ola Digest Fri, 17 Jan 2014 Volume: 03 Issue: 016
In This Issue:
[ola] complete sentences vs. memorized phrases/listing
[ola] Re: complete sentences vs. memorized phrases/listing
[ola] Re: complete sentences vs. memorized phrases/listing
[ola] food and flags
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: JoAnna Coleman <joannac@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [ola] complete sentences vs. memorized phrases/listing
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 20:48:10 +0000
Hello all -
During oral assessments, I sometimes have a difficult time distinguishing
between what would be considered complete sentences vs. a memorized
phrase/chunk or listing
What would you say about the following in an oral assessment? (2nd year
Spanish)
Describe tu rutina por la manana:
Me despierto a las seis todos los dias, entonces me levanto lentamente y voy
al bano. Me ducho en la ducha con agua caliente, me lavo el pelo con champu,
y el cuerpo con jabon. Mi jabon favorito es Dove y mi champu favorito es
Suave. Despues, me seco con una toalla, etc...
These are, in fact, phrases that students have memorized/internalized in a
list, but they are also complete sentences. (he isn't saying yo ir, yo
champu pelo, yo favorito Dove, etc...)
Also, when a student answers a question with a phrase/chunk that you
wouldn't naturally a complete sentence, how do you assess that?
Example:
question: con que frecuencia te lavas el pelo?
answer: todos los dias (it seems unnatural for me to insist that they answer
this question with a complete sentence, me lavo el pelo todos los dias)
I'm asking the wrong questions, aren't I?
I think it's important to ask follow up questions to break up the somewhat
memorized monologue they've prepared for "describe tu rutina por la manana"
to see what they do when caught off guard with a question: will they revert
to phrases/chunks/listing or maintain complete sentences?
Thanks and happy Friday!
JoAnna Coleman
Spanish Teacher
Wilson High School
503-916-5280 ext. 75231
joannac@xxxxxxx
http://profecoleman.wordpress.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 15:58:14 -0500
Subject: [ola] Re: complete sentences vs. memorized phrases/listing
From: Thomas Hinkle <thinkle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
I don't know if it's helpful, but I try to look for a variety of sentences.
Given that the same student who produced all the "me _____o" sentences also
produces sentences w/ MI favorito es...", and so on, it sounds more like
they're actually creating sentences with language as opposed to just
producing a list.
The only thing that strikes me as surprising (or suspicious) about your
example is that it so correct. I would expect more errors from a student
who's really starting to create with language. We would expect to see some
overgeneralization of patterns (perhaps "me soy" after learning reflexives,
for example), more interference from internalized English grammar and so on.
As to questions, I think your final point is dead on -- it's not about
whether the closed question is "wrong" but whether you move on to give them
opportunities to create larger chunks of language at another point in the
assessment (this is harder when an assessment is not 1:1 -- recorded speech,
partner work, and so on)
The
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 3:48 PM, JoAnna Coleman <joannac@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hello all -
>
>
> During oral assessments, I sometimes have a difficult time
> distinguishing between what would be considered complete sentences vs.
> a memorized phrase/chunk or listing
>
>
> What would you say about the following in an oral assessment? (2nd
> year
> Spanish)
>
>
> Describe tu rutina por la manana:
>
> *Me despierto a las seis todos los dias, entonces me levanto
> lentamente y voy al bano. Me ducho en la ducha con agua caliente, me
> lavo el pelo con champu, y el cuerpo con jabon. Mi jabon favorito es
> Dove y mi champu favorito es Suave. Despues, me seco con una toalla,
> etc...*
>
>
> These are, in fact, phrases that students have memorized/internalized
> in a list, but they are also complete sentences. (he isn't saying yo
> ir, yo champu pelo, yo favorito Dove, etc...)
>
>
> Also, when a student answers a question with a phrase/chunk that you
> wouldn't naturally a complete sentence, how do you assess that?
>
>
> *Example: *
>
> question: *con que frecuencia te lavas el pelo*?
>
> answer: *todos los dias* (it seems unnatural for me to insist that
> they answer this question with a complete sentence, *me lavo el pelo
> todos los
> dias*)
>
>
> I'm asking the wrong questions, aren't I?
>
>
> I think it's important to ask follow up questions to break up the
> somewhat memorized monologue they've prepared for "describe tu rutina
> por la manana" to see what they do when caught off guard with a
> question: will they revert to phrases/chunks/listing or maintain complete
sentences?
>
>
> Thanks and happy Friday!
>
>
> JoAnna Coleman
> Spanish Teacher
> Wilson High School
> 503-916-5280 ext. 75231
> joannac@xxxxxxx
> http://profecoleman.wordpress.com/
>
>
--
Thomas Hinkle
English & Spanish Department Coordinator Innovation Academy Charter School
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 15:59:03 -0500
Subject: [ola] Re: complete sentences vs. memorized phrases/listing
From: Thomas Hinkle <thinkle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 3:58 PM, Thomas Hinkle <
thinkle@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I don't know if it's helpful, but I try to look for a variety of
> sentences. Given that the same student who produced all the "me _____o"
> sentences also produces sentences w/ MI favorito es...", and so on, it
> sounds more like they're actually creating sentences with language as
> opposed to just producing a list.
>
> The only thing that strikes me as surprising (or suspicious) about your
> example is that it so correct. I would expect more errors from a student
> who's really starting to create with language. We would expect to see some
> overgeneralization of patterns (perhaps "me soy" after learning
reflexives,
> for example), more interference from internalized English grammar and so
on.
>
> As to questions, I think your final point is dead on -- it's not about
> whether the closed question is "wrong" but whether you move on to give
them
> opportunities to create larger chunks of language at another point in the
> assessment (this is harder when an assessment is not 1:1 -- recorded
> speech, partner work, and so on)
>
> The
>
Tom -- my name is Tom, not "the." Can we tell it's Friday afternoon?
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 3:48 PM, JoAnna Coleman <joannac@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Hello all -
>>
>>
>> During oral assessments, I sometimes have a difficult time
>> distinguishing between what would be considered complete sentences vs. a
>> memorized phrase/chunk or listing
>>
>>
>> What would you say about the following in an oral assessment? (2nd year
>> Spanish)
>>
>>
>> Describe tu rutina por la manana:
>>
>> *Me despierto a las seis todos los dias, entonces me levanto lentamente y
>> voy al bano. Me ducho en la ducha con agua caliente, me lavo el pelo con
>> champu, y el cuerpo con jabon. Mi jabon favorito es Dove y mi champu
>> favorito es Suave. Despues, me seco con una toalla, etc...*
>>
>>
>> These are, in fact, phrases that students have memorized/internalized
>> in a list, but they are also complete sentences. (he isn't saying yo ir,
yo
>> champu pelo, yo favorito Dove, etc...)
>>
>>
>> Also, when a student answers a question with a phrase/chunk that you
>> wouldn't naturally a complete sentence, how do you assess that?
>>
>>
>> *Example: *
>>
>> question: *con que frecuencia te lavas el pelo*?
>>
>> answer: *todos los dias* (it seems unnatural for me to insist that they
>> answer this question with a complete sentence, *me lavo el pelo todos
>> los dias*)
>>
>>
>> I'm asking the wrong questions, aren't I?
>>
>>
>> I think it's important to ask follow up questions to break up the
>> somewhat memorized monologue they've prepared for "describe tu rutina por
>> la manana" to see what they do when caught off guard with a question:
will
>> they revert to phrases/chunks/listing or maintain complete sentences?
>>
>>
>> Thanks and happy Friday!
>>
>>
>> JoAnna Coleman
>> Spanish Teacher
>> Wilson High School
>> 503-916-5280 ext. 75231
>> joannac@xxxxxxx
>> http://profecoleman.wordpress.com/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thomas Hinkle
> English & Spanish Department Coordinator
> Innovation Academy Charter School
>
>
--
Thomas Hinkle
English & Spanish Department Coordinator
Innovation Academy Charter School
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2014 15:19:51 -0800
From: "Jody Soberon" <JodySo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [ola] food and flags
Some more awesome pictures, flags made with foods of the country!
http://twentytwowords.com/2013/09/24/national-flags-made-with-foods-that-are
-popular-in-that-country-36-pictures/
Foreign Languages
Brookings Harbor High School
------------------------------
End of ola Digest V3 #16
************************
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