I think I will declare myself an agnostic on what these birds were. The data available is too thin and I hope somebody makes an effort to investigate (within the limits of respect for property rights). First, I lived with AFRICAN PIED WAGTAILS. I have been remiss in keeping up with pendulum swings of wagtail taxonomy, but I believe they are still considered a separate species, but allied with the white-wagtail complex. And they sit wherever they want and they're noisy. It is not unusual for them to feed together in a manner similar to pipits in AFRICA. Here's my grumble. If you have a cell phone, you have a camera. Let's make Thanksgiving weekend birds phones (and videos) on cell phone weekend. While you're out walking off that extra piece of pumpkin pie (or trying to escape that annoying family member that has all those wrong opinions), take out the cell phone and practice getting the best bird photo you can. We'll have a contest. Even a marginal photo from a cell phone would help solve the current conundrum. What is the status of Western Scrub Jay in the Newport/South Beach Area, anyway? -- Mike Patterson Astoria, OR On watch in the Seawatch http://www.surfbirds.com/community-blogs/northcoastdiaries/?p=1506 OBOL archives: www.freelists.org/archive/obol Manage your account or unsubscribe: //www.freelists.org/list/obol Contact moderators: obol-moderators@xxxxxxxxxxxxx