>>And just what do you have against databases?<beg> Oh MAN, are YOU gonna be sorry you asked him THAT question.<rofl> Dian Chapman Technical Consultant, Instructor, Microsoft MVP & TechTrax Editor Word AutoForm/VBA eBook: http://www.mousetrax.com/books.html Tutorial web site: http://www.mousetrax.com/techpage.html TechTrax Ezine: http://www.mousetrax.com/techtrax/ -----Original Message----- From: mso-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:mso-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James LaBorde Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 3:35 PM To: 'mso@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' Subject: [mso] Re: Dian won't be around much either :VSMail MX3 Greg, And just what do you have against databases?<beg> James -----Original Message----- From: Greg Chapman [mailto:greg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:18 PM To: mso@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [mso] Re: Dian won't be around much either :VSMail MX3 Yes, I am saying that it's easier because of the follow-up cleaning that often becomes necessary with FP. It has been much less a chore to make sure DW code is clean than FP code in the past. Now, Steven is saying that they've finally conquered issues like FP automagically scarring your HTML tagging, etc. They also claimed (I haven't verified) to stop MS scarring valid and portable web formatting with proprietary, no-portable, IE specific tagging. But, it's my opinion that the real issue is in cleaning up what either product does after you've produced your result. That's the real time eater, to me. Now, to be perfectly blunt, I'm not a fan of Dreamweaver either. I think it's got some good tools but some major flaws as well. The last time I used it, I was impressed with its enforcement of relative paths until I saw a gotcha or two that led to couple hour cleanup headaches. It's simply amazing to me that such a simple thing as basic HTML coding can be such a nightmarish time commitment and that using advanced tools still hasn't improved things. I find myself running back to plain old test-editors and writing HTML3.0 compliant pages whenever possible. Since most of what I do is "write to explain", I also have no need for excessive graphics in my work nor do I need most of the other fancier stuff. Call me a Luddite. The idea of CSS is a great one, in my opinion, but it again falls short since the definition pages turn into a nightmare of their own. Add to that problem the current fad of using XML for everything (an implementation that is a direct offshoot of the CSS methodology) and my enthusiasm for the tools, the technology and the sites falls off to a level close to that I hold for the overuse of databases. I don't think these tools are going to be what we settle on the future (I certainly hope not) but I'd rather mess with DW output than FP output any day since I'm only called in as a janitor to clean up the results of these designer tools. Bah!! Humbug!! It's amazing to me the lessons we have to learn over and over. This didn't just start in the computer business. Remember the original Thunderbird? The original Mustang? How many times has each of those products grown into a land-barge and then back to a fun, sporty thing again? The market certainly never made a demand for machines like those tanker sized variants yet they were created anyway. I see these tools as parallel problems and a need to take it all to simpler scheme again. Today, were I to go looking again at HTML editors and FP was amongst my front-runners, I'd still pass it over and move straight to InterDev. InterDev is more likely to provide me an excellent dev environment and then produce non-proprietary HTML tagging than FP. Were I told that I would have to serve my site on a Unix server, neither InterDev or FP would win due to my lack of trust for FP after 5 years of whining and InterDev's real focus on producing ASP pages. Greg Chapman http://www.mousetrax.com "Counting in binary is as easy as 01, 10, 11! With thinking this clear, is coding really a good idea?" > -----Original Message----- > From: mso-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > [mailto:mso-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Linda F. Johnson > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 2:57 PM > To: mso@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [mso] Re: Dian won't be around much either > > > > <<People will spend money on tools they can use with minimal > training despite a cheaper priced alternative that provides > too many challenges.>> > > Greg...you seriously saying that you think Dreamweaver is > easier to use than FrontPage? > ************************************************************* You are receiving this mail because you subscribed to mso@xxxxxxxxxxxxx or MicrosoftOffice@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx To send mail to the group, simply address it to mso@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To Unsubscribe from this group, send an email to mso-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?Subject=unsubscribe Or, visit the group's homepage and use the dropdown menu. 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