[macvoiceover] Re: How i'm not having fun with macmall

What I get a lot of is being jumped out of what I am reading and back to the top of a webpage. Safari just doesn't cut it for me at the moment. I need that darn Windows still. frown. 
Sara
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 6:13 PM
Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: How i'm not having fun with macmall


so, to explore this properly, what happens if you load them first
without vo and then turn vo on.  From what I read about ff isues with
vo, there seems to be a problem with the accessibility api that causes
varying degrees of this issue.  For instance, there are times when vo
"crashes" you know, restarts in the midst of what we are doing and it
is almost at random.  What can cause this and other types of behavior
and how can it be corrected?  This is not unique to vo.  Other ats o
other platforms have similar issues though when the others die, they
just die and don't come back.  I have to refresh a lot of pages with
JAWS to get them to work right and then the next time, they work right
without refreshing but then some always need refreshing.  This is a
jaws refresh though and not a page refresh.

On Dec 31, 2008, at 7:02 PM, Cara Quinn wrote:

 Sure, I get that.  <smile>  and of course they're not, but then why
wouldn't they be rerendered when VO is turned off and then on again?…

 It seems that something else here is at issue?…

Smiles,

Cara  :)


On Dec 31, 2008, at 2:57 PM, David Poehlman wrote:
The question though is are the pages you find misbehaving with vo missbehaving at all without it? 

On Dec 31, 2008, at 5:48 PM, Cara Quinn wrote:

Hey Travis et al;

No blame here, <smile>  and excellent points!
Yes, the page will read when copied / pasted into TextEdit, as well as wen one does a select all and reads with the system voice. However, it just seems to be an issue where VO can't seem to grasp what's displayed?…
My thoughts on WebKit come from other's exp in this, and not my own, currently, so I'm sure open to suggestions. <smile>
For me though it doesn't seem that this is simply a VO issue though, as turning VO off and then on again, has had no effect in any of these cases for me, so I'd assume that since this only seems to take care of itself after a refresh of the page, that there's something else happening here aside from just VO not getting its data properly? … Is something else not properly sending the data in essence, so that VO can read it appropriately?…
Anyway, I'd assume that Apple already knows about this from many of us on the list?… yes?… 

Anyway, thanks again for your note and again, excellent points.

Have a terrific New Year's Eve!…

Rock!

Cara  :)


On Dec 31, 2008, at 5:04 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:
I realize folks here (and elsewhere) are blaming this reloading thing on webkit, but I am not convinced this is the problem. 
Why?
Because, as has been pointed out several times, copy/paste of the offending page into text edit or some other editing package still renders the page properly. If this were a web kit problem, the page should misbehave regardless of what program it's droppped into, since they all use the same apis to do their rendering. I'm convinced it's something to do with the way vo is getting the information from the page. 
Again, why?
Because, this doesn't only happen under web page reloads.
I've also had vo loose focus so badly in other programs, including text edit, finder, disk utility, mail, and others that the only solution is to turn off voiceover, then turn it back on to get the offending app to allow vo to read the contents of the screen properly. 
I'm sure every one here has seen this behavior.
You try to move around the screen, and all you get is bing noises, because vo says there's nothing there. This is exactly the same behavior, only on a slightly different scale as the web page not being seen by vo. 
Why does this happen?
I have no idea, but for the most part (at least with non-safari related issues) it seems to happen after the system claims to be busy for a bit, then whichever app was front-most when the system recovers from it's busy state suddenly and inexplicably has these issues. I submit that the safari issue is a variation on a theme, (though I've experienced the bing problem from safari too I might add). Blaming it on webkit might rovide a focus for the complaints, but I doubt it's the proper culprit in this case, since visually, the pages are rendering fine, and (as mentioned above) cut/paste of the content into another window allows the page to be navigated mostly normally. I realize it's an intermitent thing, and as a result, it makes it darned near impossible to track down, even for someone running debug versions of the kernel and fully profiled code, but I think we should be addressing these issues to apple as vo ones, not webkit ones. Even if it is a webkit issue (which I doubt) we should still address them to apple as vo issues, because for us, it's only a problem when using vo, it's not an issue for sighted folks using safari, shiira, camino, or any other browser which uses webkit. And, because it's visually possible to move around and click on things in these browsers, sighted folks aren't going to see this as an issue no matter how much you complain about it. Ergo, the vo team is the only one equipped to handle them, and that's where the reports should go. Of course, you should be as complete as possible, stating under which conditions the problem occurred, where you were, what you were doing, and so forth, being as polite as possible of course, so at least we can get it looked at. If enough folks report enough of these pages that misbehave, Apple may eventually find a pattern, and be able to nail it down to an offending semicolon or something equally simplistic. *grin* 
Just my input on the matter, take it as you will.



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