[lit-ideas] Re: Islamism and Islamism
- From: Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 10:15:46 -0800 (PST)
Indeed, Lawrence, such a situation doesn't exist
anywhere. You yourself don't hold to all the liberal
attitudes that you demand from Muslims. Personally, I
am probably closer to these attitudes than you are,
but that is not the point. There is no absolute
freedom or perfect happiness anywhere. You seem to
expect Muslims to become not just Christians, but some
sort of ideal Christians that never existed in
reality, and never could. It's true (in my opinion)
that for some (relatively short) time the Westerners
had more political and personal liberties than was
available in the Middle East, largely due to the fact
that the enlightened Western powers imposed on the
Muslim nations "benevolent dictators" and / or decent
authoritarian monarchies while exploiting them
economically. But that is changing already,
insha'allah. Insofar as Islamism is an agent for
change, I sympathize with it. I am sorry about 9/11
and all that, but 9/11 is not the most important, or
the most terrible, event in the history of the human
race. That's all I have to say, for now.
O.K.
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[lit-ideas] Re: Islamism and Islamism
From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 07:50:52 -0800
Okay, Omar, There is something wrong with Hirsi Ali,
Daniel Pipes, Ibn
Warrick, and me. We are all perverse and uninformed
for not being able to
find Islamic Moderates, but why waste your time
criticizing us? That
doesn't really prove your point. The demolishing of
us doesn't produce any
Moderate Muslims. Instead, why don't you say, "look,
here they are! Here
and here and here and here. Look, here is a whole
nation of them. See how
they value human rights. See especially how well they
treat women. Women
can do and say anything they like there. They can
dress however they like.
Look at all the freedom of speech. See how that
organization over there
criticizes the president and nothing is done to them.
Do you see that?
That is because they are free and uncoerced, and the
President has no
recourse but to let those people say any thing they
like -- and the press -
see how free the press is. They can say anything they
like. And look how
peaceful everyone is. Look over there is an Islamic
Pacifist organization.
They don't believe in any fighting of any kind. And
no one wants an
aggressive war. As to Jihads, don't worry about them.
They are for
personal improvement only.
If you were able to say that, Omar; then all our
mouths would shut. But you
can't, because such a situation doesn't exist. Even
the people you fancy as
moderates don't hold to all of the positions above.
But if there were any,
they would either be in hiding with there mouths
firmly closed, or they
would have immigrated to a Western nation where they
could find like-minded
people, and perhaps form another Progressive Islam
organization.
Lawrence.
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