[lit-ideas] Diogenes searching for the vast peaceful majority
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 07:15:00 -0800
I obviously wouldn't have been unaware of Islamic Center of America or the
Fellowship for Reconciliation when I issued the subject challenge inasmuch
as we discussed this organization and some others in regard to an earlier
discussion, namely that no one in the Middle East was able to speak out
against Fundamentalist Islam. If there was anyone doing it, he was doing it
from the safety of the U.S. or Europe. However, in our search we were only
able to find such organizations in the U.S. One of the most interesting
organizations I found at the time was http://www.iranian.com/
Intellectual and professional Muslims interested in escaping the repression
of Fundamentalist Islam are more likely to come to the U.S. then Europe
because (according to Bawer) our immigration policies focus upon integration
and work. Whereas in Europe the easiest path is to go into welfare, live in
a ghetto and never integrate.
I don't believe there is a vast majority of Muslims in the Middle East (and
after reading Bawer's book I am tempted to add Europe) that would sign up to
such organizations as the Islamic Center of America. I have been on the
lookout for hints of this "vast majority," or even a sizeable segment and
haven't found either.
My belief continues to be that 1) there is not a vast majority that opposes
Fundamentalist Islam in the Middle East, and 2) there are no organizations
in the Middle East speaking out against Fundamentalist Islam. I have found
a few individuals who have spoken out from time to time but they soon flee
the Middle East - if they are lucky. Otherwise they are jailed, beaten or
killed - sometimes all three. And Europe is rapidly becoming as bad as the
testimony of Hirsi Ali indicates.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, March 11, 2006 2:53 AM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Dutch support killer of van Gogh
Provide some evidence of this vast peaceful majority that does not share the
viewpoint of Fundamentalist Muslims
The <http://www.icofa.com/> Islamic Center of America
Fellowship <http://www.forusa.org/> of Reconciliation - Peace, Justice and
Nonviolence
========Original Message========
Subj:
[lit-ideas] Re: Dutch support killer of van Gogh
Date:
3/10/06 6:29:05 P.M. Central Standard Time
From:
lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To:
lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent on:
I don't accept your view that the problem Muslims are not numerous. This is
the viewpoint of Fukuyama which I discussed elsewhere. He followed the
viewpoint of Gilles Kepel and Olivier Roy, but most of the writers I've read
described a few activists, but a vast reservoir of Fundamentalist Islamists
who share their viewpoint and agree with them but don't wish to become
activities themselves. It is not their calling, but they do support the
activists.
If you Kepel, Roy and Fukuyama are right then we have little to worry about,
but if all the others I've read are right then we are at war and our
opponent is formidable and serious. It would be nice if you were right, but
I don't think you are.
I'll challenge you as I have some others. Provide some evidence of this
vast peaceful majority that does not share the viewpoint of Fundamentalist
Muslims. I have looked for this evidence as I have remarked in several
notes in the past and haven't found it. And when you want to analyze me
rather than the evidence, facts, and accounts I'm presenting, I'm fairly
certain you haven't found it either.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 3:51 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Dutch support killer of van Gogh
Lawrence,
There are two dynamics at play here.
On the one side are the Islamists, a small, but distinct minority of the
muslim population. They have extreme views and, through pointing out the
imagined outrages of Western society, aim to enlist the growing support of
less extreme mulsims.
On the other side we have people like yourself who point fingers at that
small minority of muslims. You highlight them as representitive of the
muslim community at large.
Now, the strange thing is, both dynamics are moving in the same direction.
You, as representitive of the vocal element of the right wing are adding to
the stock of extreme fundamentalism. You are creating an enemy for yourself.
Sensible?
I think not.
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 10:42 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Dutch support killer of van Gogh
I should conclude, as most Europeans apparently will that all is as it
should be and Europe should keep on trucking. In other words, not only is
Europe asleep, but it can prove systematically why it ought to remain
asleep. Got it.
Of course none of this addresses the main point of Bawer's book. You are
focusing on a minor point. He finds it ironic that you are paying the
Islamists who destroy you.
So do I. And as your note below explains, there is nothing you can do about
it; which I find pathetic.
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Simon Ward
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 2:10 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Dutch support killer of van Gogh
"That they are willing to pay the Muslims who are destroying them is a sign
they are sleeping."
1. When anybody claims an entitlement there is no question on the
application form that bears any resemblance to: Are you a murdering
terrorist?
2. When those terrorists who claimed benefits did apply, they were not as
yet murderers.
3. Not all muslims are terrorists. Even if they have extreme views and go on
demos, they are not all terrorists.
4. Not all muslims are out to destroy the west. The vast majority work very
hard and earn their money.
Simon
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