Arpad: We would do exactly as you state. That is not my concern. All entries in #6 start with a Typ value. The Optional Default is consistent in all cases as an override for some parameters. My concern is consistency of our rules and existing applications. I believe many models already redundantly use Corner and Default. There is no reason for change, and the Default overrule interpretation can be valid for some analysis for all of these cases. In the cases for #7, there is no definition of "Typ" entry. So the Default exclusion rule is valid (as with the exclusive OR rule with Value in #4). I think Default was not fully thought out in its relationship to all the other <data_format> parameters, but creating a spider-web of inconsistent rules for our primitive elements does more harm than good. Bob From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 8:39 AM To: IBIS-ATM Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Format Corner - Interpretation? Bob, I didn't remember that these "Notes" mentioned the same as the text I quoted for change. I don't see why we couldn't delete "Corner" from #6 and add to #7 in these notes. Am I missing something? Thanks, Arpad ========================================================= From: Bob Ross [mailto:bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:34 AM To: wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx; Muranyi, Arpad; 'IBIS-ATM' Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Re: Format Corner - Interpretation? All: My only concern is now we have an inconsistent rule. Here is where this issue fits in: |* All parameters must be in the following format: |* |* (parameter_name (Usage <usage>) |* (Type <data_type>) |* ({Format} <data_format> <data>) |* (Default <value>) |* (Description <string>)) |* |* Notes: |* 1) The order of the entries is not important. |* 2) The word Format is optional as indicated by the curly |* braces "{" and "}" and may be ignored by the EDA tools. |* (The examples do not show the word Format). |* 3) Certain reserved parameter names allow only certain |* <data_format> selections, as described below. |* 4) The <data_format> selection of Value and Default are |* always mutually exclusive. Certain parameters may require |* Value or Default, but Value and Default are not allowed to |* be present together for the same parameter. |* 5) <data_format> is always required for selections other |* than Value. |* 6) Default is optional for <data_format> Range, List, Corner, |* Increment and Steps. |* 7) Default is not allowed for <data_format> Table, Gaussian, |* Dual-Dirac and DjRj. |* List, Range, and Corner, Increment, and Steps all have the first entry defined as a "Typ" value. The same logic applies for Corner in rule 6.. You may choose the slow or fast value for the Default just as you might choose any of the non-Typ values for the other <data_format> entries. So I think the rule should remain as is. Bob From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Walter Katz Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 8:18 AM To: Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx; 'IBIS-ATM' Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Format Corner - Interpretation? Arpad, I agree that (Default Value) does not make much sense for (Corner typ slow fast). Walter From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 10:55 AM To: IBIS-ATM Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Format Corner - Interpretation? Walter, I checked in BIRD 127 (Out Typos BIRD) and found this in it: | Default <value>: |* Default and Value are mutually exclusive, and must not be used together |* for the same parameter. Default is not allowed for Table, Gaussian, |* Dual-Dirac and DjRj. Default is optional for Range, List, Corner, |* Increment and Steps. If a Default <value> is specified, its value must |* have the same Type as the parameter. For example, if Type is Boolean, |* <value> must be either True or False, if Type is Integer, <value> must |* be an integer. Also, if Default is specified, <value> must be a member |* of the set of allowed values of the parameter. If Default is not |* specified, the default value of the parameters will be the <typ> value. I still wonder if Default makes sense for Corner. Wouldn't a tool always know what corner they are working with, therefore wouldn't Corner always be set to a known value? What do you think? Thanks, Arpad ================================================== From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:52 PM To: IBIS-ATM Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Format Corner - Interpretation? Walter, Another question: Does a parameter of Type Corner need Default? Or is it not needed, or even prohibited? When would a tool make use of a default value for them? The tool always knows what corner it simulates, right? Thanks, Arpad ======================================================== From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:39 PM To: IBIS-ATM Subject: [ibis-macro] Re: Format Corner - Interpretation? Walter, Thanks for the answer. However, I think that's not the end of the story yet. If the value of corner (and the rest of the predefined parameters) are set by the tool, the following statements don't make sense in BIRD 124: | "xyz" is a predefined AMI parameter of Type String and Usage Info (Usage Info) is information that goes from the .ami file to the tool. If these parameters come FROM the tool they can't be Info. Thanks, Arpad ============================================================ From: Walter Katz [mailto:wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:22 PM To: Muranyi, Arpad; 'IBIS-ATM' Subject: RE: [ibis-macro] Format Corner - Interpretation? Arpad, Corner is determined by the EDA tool. Walter From: ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ibis-macro-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Muranyi, Arpad Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:15 PM To: IBIS-ATM Subject: [ibis-macro] Format Corner - Interpretation? Hello AMI experts, I stumbled on a question regarding how Format Corner supposed to be interpreted by an EDA tool. Pg. 140 of the IBIS specification say this: Description: cid:image001.png@01CBEECC.105EF9F0 and pg. 141 has this: Description: cid:image002.png@01CBEECC.105EF9F0 Then on pg. 146 I see this: Description: cid:image003.png@01CBEECC.105EF9F0 and on pg. 147 I see this: Description: cid:image004.png@01CBEECC.105EF9F0 In BIRD 124 I read the following: | "[Corner]" is a predefined AMI parameter of Type String and Usage Info that can | be used to create an input column in a dependency table. It has a List format with | the allowed values "Typ", "Slow" and "Fast". but I don't see any text in the Specification or the BIRD that explains how "Corner" is predefined and from where and how it gets it value. Could someone explain this to me please? It seems that this needs another clarification BIRD. Thanks, Arpad ===============================================================