[ian-reeds-games] Re: a thought about rpg making...
- From: "Allan Thompson" <allan1.thompson@xxxxxxx>
- To: <ian-reeds-games@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:42:11 -0500
Hi Ian,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my large can of tuna questions, grin.
Yeah, your probably right. One day at a time, and hopefully it will come to
pass after the days have turned into weeks, months...years?
al
"The truth will set you free"
Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Reed
To: ian-reeds-games@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2013 12:46 AM
Subject: [ian-reeds-games] Re: a thought about rpg making...
Hey Allan,
Wow, definitely a can of tuna! I appreciate the brainstorming though.
I'll address just some of the high level things since it's so far off in the
distance.
And give a warning to everyone. Don't read on if you're only intrested in TB
related stuff. This is very very future and pretty long.
Still reading?
Can't say I didn't warned you!
Allan said: Some of the things that players might want precreated for them is
weather, movement of time, food and water consumption, the timingof
caravans/merchants/units from town to town, wandering units/monsters,
randomized lists for treasure, shopkeepers, monsters, special events etc and so
forth.
I say: That's a big list. As with TB we'll have to start with the things
that are most core to the largest number of RPGs and expand from there.
Allan said: I think you are going to need a "getting started system" that is
balanced and works for those who want to create scenarios but not whole rpg
systems.
Allan also said: As for systems, is it possible to cater to diffrent types of
systems developed by rpg makers?
I say: You make a very good point about the getting started stuff.
Here's how it will probably be handled taking different systems into
consideration.
I will work to make an engine that can support many systems.
I think this will be one of the most challenging things about the engine as
systems can vary so much.
We see a little bit of this in TB where for some solid numbers is fine, for
others it should be a range and for others dice rolls make the most sense.
We especially see it when we get into chance where my initial thought was to
just do a chance of percent, then later add a sort of dodge percent but as you
bring up many systems have you roll dice and you must meet or beat a certain
number which can be affected by all sorts of modifiers.
I believe that we can find a way to handle both scenarios. After all the
simple chance=70% flag really means roll a 1d100 and you must meet or beat 31.
So we just need to find a way to sort of roll all of these into one while
still leaving syntactic sugar to let people clarify it in a way that is natural
for their system.
To go further I suppose TB could have almost started with dice and modifiers
from the beginning.
Want a solid 5?
Roll a 5d1.
Want a range between 5 and 10?
Roll a 1d6 with a + 4 modifier applied after the roll.
It doesn't seem natural to me to do ranges or solid numbers that way, but it
sort of gives an idea about how these things could be rolled into one.
I also think that most pen and paper systems actually come very close to each
other for what I'm concerned with as they all use dice.
So back to the big picture, once this engine is implemented or rather as it
gets implemented others who are interested in making RPGs will work with me to
implement the system they like, whether it be D&D, Vampire or Final Fantasy.
Once a base system is implemented it could become a getting started set for
that type of system.
Then people who just want to create scenarios could start from one of the
getting started systems.
I think the getting started systems will be very time consuming to create and
the engine even more so.
But I'm not expecting it to be done anytime soon and in general TB is
exploring the combat portion of these systems so we've already started down the
long road.
I realize TB doesn't currently support a lot of things, but that's why we're
improving it.
Allan said: In entombed, the things that I thought worked well were the
equip screen. It didn't go far enough however, and should have included other
body parts so that magical items could be used that wasn't strictly armor.
Fingers, eyes, toes, nose, ears, back, neck.
I say: Some would say that entombed went too far with equipment slots but you
felt it did not go far enough.
What's the solution?
Well it's something like allow the system creator to define the equipment
slots.
Then they can have as many or as few as they want.
And again once one getting started system is defined then anyone can use that
as a starting point and extend it the way they want.
Equip slots would be able to hold certain types of equip groups.
Then items would belong to certain types of equip groups if they are
equippable at all.
Some items could even be defined to fit into multiple equip groups.
So maybe you define an arm equip group and you have left arm and right arm
equip slots that can hold items of that equip group.
Then you define leather arm guards that belong to the arm equip group.
Now they can be equipped in the left or right arm slots and only those
positions.
We could go further and say that warriors can equip plate, chain, leather, or
cloth armor.
But say that mages can only equip cloth.
So then character classes would need a way to say that they can only equip
certain types of equip groups.
Then our leather arm guards would belong to the arm equip group and the
leather equip group.
Then they must go on a character that supports leather and into an arm slot.
I may split those equip groups out into different types, not sure yet, this
is all very undetermined.
Allan said: I felt the damageing body parts was interesting, but not
necessary.
I say: I agree actually and I don't think that will be included in the RPG
maker.
It was a neat feature but I have to draw the line somewhere.
Allan said: so it is good that both types are supported, and hopefully both
types can exist in teh same campaign.
I say: Makes sense, I'll be sure to make it so both types of exploration can
be supported in the same campaign.
Allan said: What I didn't like too much was the inventory. Entombed had to
lump everything together since there was just so much stuff to use and wear
etc. I would have prefered inventory for each unit however
I say: It's been a while since I played Entombed so I'm going off memory here.
I think entombed let you press tab while in the inventory and then it
filtered to a specific group of items which helped reduce the large inventory
problem.
Something like weapons, shields, armor, expendables.
In my RPG Maker these might be matched to equip groups.
One of the problems I saw was that you didn't know when you'd reached the
bottom of the list as it automatically wrapped and did not play any sort of
menu wrap sound.
You also never knew how many items you had.
I already use a menu wrap sound in TB which helps a bit.
I would also have numbers announced at the end of each item similar to how my
screen reader does in a list view, such as:
legendary long sword of might 5 of 24
To go further it would be nice to support either the global inventory system
or the individual inventory system as you say.
At some levels the game engine will need a flag to know how to do things,
such as whether to use global inventory or individual inventory.
At other levels it makes more sense to leave it wide open such as defining
which equip slots and equip groups exist.
It will be a tough balance and is the same kind of thing we're doing in TB.
Allan said: I don't mind the battles being menu driven or tb style, either or
works.
I say: Eventually it will be the creator's choice, in the beginning it will
be TB since that combat system already exists.
Allan said: Lastly is the dungeon exploration itself. That is tough.
I say: I personally didn't care for the Entombed dungeon exploration.
This is primarily because it was too much to remember and as you say I found
myself using the nearest unexplored key constantly.
The dungeon exploration became, press Z, follow directions and repeate until
you hit combat.
Of course you could heal or sleep while out of combat, but this had little to
do with the exploration.
Initially this will also be limited to one type of exploration system because
I can only implement one at a time.
I'm not sure what that system will be yet, still throwing ideas around.
One thing you forgot to bring up is how to implement storyline / plot.
Another thing on my mind, but we'll leave it till another day.
Whew! That email wore me out and makes me think of how overwhelming it all
seems.
Really it comes down to having a general direction and just taking one day at
a time.
And working on mid term goals such as the TB combat system until some day
those mid term goals combine into the very long term goal.
Well, back to today's world. Thanks for the discussion.
Ian Reed
On 1/17/2013 8:27 PM, Allan Thompson wrote:
Hi Ian and all,
I agree about entombed music and sound effects are tops. I played it again
to remind myself and yeah, it all seems so natural how all the sounds work.
Back then I didn't think much of it, cause I wasn't interested in sounds.
However, now, it is like, Wow! That was great! Whoever did those sounds are
keen in my book.
anyway...
Since the cat got let out of the bag, I figured I might as well open a can
of tuna.
I was thinking about real time town and "dungeon" exploration which is a
generic term for inside or outside maps.
Some of the things that players might want precreated for them is weather,
movement of time, food and water consumption, the timingof
caravans/merchants/units from town to town, wandering units/monsters,
randomized lists for treasure, shopkeepers, monsters, special events etc and so
forth.
One of the biggest things I was thinking about was the game system itself.
I think you are going to need a "getting started system" that is balanced and
works for those who want to create scenarios but not whole rpg systems.
That way it is usable out of the box, so to speak.
As for systems, is it possible to cater to diffrent types of systems
developed by rpg makers? For example, vampire is a very diffrent system from
dungeons and dragons. Vampire involves an attributte plus skill=number of d10
rolled with a difficulty of 7 or higher as a success. So it is all skill based.
D and D is a class system, where each class increases in power based on
their profession, and uses a d20 with modifiers to hit a calculated number.
This would also include levelling up. Usually getting experience points, or
being awarded points to stick into skills and and traits, or getting bigger
bonuses for various rolls, as well as increasing totals of health, mana,
attributes or whatever. Taht all seems like a rpg makers perogative but I don't
know so I mention it.
In entombed, the things that I thought worked well were the equip screen.
It didn't go far enough however, and should have included other body parts so
that magical items could be used that wasn't strictly armor. Fingers, eyes,
toes, nose, ears, back, neck...I am thinking this would need to be part of the
base system and let creators move froward from there to add the weird stuff.
Also, templates would have to be made for the various critters all over the
place, like centaurs, spiders and dogs to name a few.
I felt the damageing body parts was interesting, but not necessary. I do
not knowhow important it would be to people to include such an ability.
Personally, I don't mind the tried and true one health fits all, lol.
The town menus was actually not bad, and I can see where something like
this would be nice to have not only in smaller towns, but inside a building.
For instance, you could walk into a tavern and have several options, like go to
the gambling table, go play some darts, go get a drink and information, or go
sit ina cornerand act mysterious, etc and so forth.
Other times, a person might want to present the city as a map, and then the
player wanders around the map and gets into trouble or finds submaps or jobs
etc and so forth. Baldurs gate the city was actually several maps large, and
that is not counting the underground sewage labyrinth, and theives guild. each
section of the city was an adventure all by itself.
so it is good that both types are supported, and hopefully both types can
exist in teh same campaign.
What I didn't like too much was the inventory. Entombed had to lump
everything together since there was just so much stuff to use and wear etc. I
would have prefered inventory for each unit however, and I am sure that can be
streamlined somehow for makers.
I don't mind the battles being menu driven or tb style, either or works,
although I do like TB better for most ocasions. It just feels more like the old
gaming I used to do, lol. I remember playing d and d all weekend, living on
nothing but pizza delivered by dominos. Dominos was still saying it could
deliver in under thirty minutes, but our street was so hard to find, we got
several free pizzas before they finally figured it out, grin.
Lastly is the dungeon exploration itself. That is tough, cause ont he one
hand, you got entombed as an example. There is alot of keys that are really
necessary to keep someone from loseing their way. Anchor points or markers
might be a good idea for that kind of thing, but the nearest unexplored
available was perhaps the most pressed key in the entire game. It really helped
alot, but I don't know if the rpg maker will nmeed that or not, or if it wil be
a flag or something similar. Entombed had random maps, but maybe in the
campaigns to be made, there won't be such a huge need, other then placing
markers for a player to help get back to wherever they want to go.
Something to think about , anyway.
al
"The truth will set you free"
Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D.
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