Neville J OK, you don't want to continue the debate. I'll answer your points and not expect an answer. I did consider using the camera to illustrate part of my argument but decided against it precisely because I felt you would regard it as moving the goal posts. Concerning the visibility of Venus in daylight -- I can't remember how young I was when I first learned of that though I confess that I have not personally witnessed it. But to your opening point. I don't know where I've 'moved the goal posts' unless you class offering multiple arguments supporting my position as such. Meanwhile, I believe I will continue in the view that stars will be visible where ever their light can penetrate and is not outcompeted. I will also continue in the view that a camera adjusted for correct exposure of objects in direct and harsh sunlight will fail to show stars under any conditions. Paul D ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick of deleting your inbox? Yahoo!7 Mail has free unlimited storage. http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/unlimitedstorage.html