[geocentrism] Re: 12 Angry Men

"Dear Phil,
I fully agree with your assessment of Neville's theological position and that 
he and I have very little in common and because of this I cannot possibly see 
how your daughter's beliefs could be the same as mine and Neville's. Could you 
elaborate a little further about your daughter for me please?" 

Why do I get the feeling that Jack is going to be sorry he asked...  <grin> 

Ok Jack, I guess I assumed all would be aware of my Catholic position.  In 
general, without specifics, the obvious commonality I apply to you all (as 
claimed followers of Christ) including my own daughter, is that you refuse to 
submit to the Church, believing that Jesus, or The holy Ghost keeps you all 
personally on track. Its what you feel. As you confirm, "It's simply a case of, 
as Neville put it,'The true spirit of God guides us through our heart, not 
through our head.' "  

To me this is untenable, in light of the obvious contradictions that exist, and 
emotions are not trustworthy, and the obvious truth that God cannot contradict 
himself. The true Spirit of God guiding us by grace through our soul and 
reason, causes us to affirm our faith as an act of the will, through works of 
charity. Note: Charity here means to seek and work for anothers salvation. Alms 
giving without this superior motive is not charity. Yet leading a person to 
God, without alms giving is still charity. Perfect charity of course only Jesus 
could perform, which he did. The prime directive is obedience to God. That is 
true charity. (love of God) 

This does not preclude Catholics from acting out their heart with feelings, but 
their faith is an ACT  of the wll, NOT the heart. We do not deny the weaker sex 
such feelings do we?

"However some of us are absolutely sure we are right and we go through our 
lives feeling very secure. I do not think that God would have (us) feel any 
differently."   

This confidence sounds so much like the opposite of the humility one would 
expect towards God.   

To presume on Gods mercy, ( a sin to a Catholic) based upon personal reasoning 
such as "I do not think that God will etc,"  is a very dangerous position to 
take..  Doesn't such thinking among men create a spiritual tower of Babel?
12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my 
presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out 
your salvation. 

13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according 
to his good will. 

 5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your lords according to the flesh, 
with fear and trembling, in the simplicity of your heart, as to Christ. 6 Not 
serving to the eye, as it were pleasing men: but, as the servants of Christ, 
doing the will of God from the heart. 

Now you may disagree, but from the heart here means "sincerely" , an act of 
will not a feeling. 

Consider the simplicity of a child. He is forbidden to take a cookie from the 
table.. In his heart he desires the cookie. But in his intellect he wills to 
obey his mother whom he loves. 

Philip. 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jack Lewis 
  To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 6:06 AM
  Subject: [geocentrism] Re: 12 Angry Men


  Dear Phil,
  I fully agree with your assessment of Neville's theological position and that 
he and I have very little in common and because of this I cannot possibly see 
how your daughter's beliefs could be the same as mine and Neville's. Could you 
elaborate a little further about your daughter for me please?

  Regarding me getting upset because Neville doesn't accept my choice of books, 
they are virtually the same choice of books that you have! Does that not 
trouble you just a little or was I right when I commented that 'perhaps the 
others don't care about Neville but I do? We all believe that we are right 
that's why we believe what we do. It's simply a case of, as Neville put it,'The 
true spirit of God guides us through our heart, not through our head.' From 
this point on; who the Holy Spirit is leading will only be known when we die. 
However some of us are absolutely sure we are right and we go through our lives 
feeling very secure. I do not think that God would have feel any differently.
   
  There is another point that might be worth considering and that is; how many 
evangelical, Reformed theology believers are part of this forum? I reckon I 
might be the only one giving the appearance that I am as unique as posit 
Neville is.

  Regards

  Jack
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Neville Jones 
    To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 8:10 PM
    Subject: [geocentrism] 12 Angry Men


    Philip,

    My replies are in green:


    -----Original Message-----

      From: joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx
      Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:50:52 +1000


      Neville why would the aether be moving at all? 

      Because without this movement the motions of heavenly bodies become too 
contrived and unexplainable in the geostationary system.

      And why, does Robert claim there are three different aethers ? Perhaps he 
is getting trinity in by the back door..  I've seen it happen..  

      Yes, he tends to sneak everything in by the back door. Maybe his front 
door is stuck?

      Yes I'm wee bit Phul at the moment.. gotta give it up , its giving me 
tender feet in the morning..  

      but be serious Neville.. Why do you think the Holy Ghost , or God if you 
prefer, would select you out of all the billions of people from the time of 
Adam,  till this day, alone , just you alone,  to be given the sole 
understanding,  to be able to select which written words amongst the thousands 
of available scripts known and unknown, are actually the real WORD OF GOD. AND 
TO BE ABLE TO REJECT ALL OTHERS.   That makes you truly unique,  none higher, 
but Jesus Himself. 

      Of course you are not alone in this.. Jack believes he has that honour, 
and he really is upset that you do not accept his choice of books. 

      Did you guys know that St. Martin Luther threw out revelations? Of course 
his offspring put them back... but it took time. 

      Yours is a very legitimate point. How can I claim to be the only man who 
can tell the earth, at this time, which scriptures are genuine and which are 
fraudulent? I do not. My commentaries are personal opinions. Only an annointed 
man (or woman) could tell you that for sure. Their annointing would be conveyed 
to you by God, just as it was when the man Jesus was chosen to proclaim and 
demonstrate the word of God.

      You must recall the truly excellent study of male behaviour and prejudice 
in the film, "12 Angry Men." Remember how Henry Fonda stands alone to start 
with against all of the other 11 jury members. What does he say to them? "I 
know the kid's innocent"? No. He actually says, "Perhaps he's guilty, perhaps 
not, I don't know. It certainly looks as though he's guilty."

      On trial for murder is an 18-year-old kid, whose name we are not even 
told. Henry Fonda's character in the film wants everyone to talk about the case 
and think for themselves for just one hour, because the life of someone that 
none of them has met depends upon it. All hell then breaks loose, because the 
case is apparently "as clear as the nose on your face."

      On trial in this earth is God, whom no man or woman has ever even seen. 
The evidence is overwhelming: God said this. God said that. God did this. God 
did that. God didn't do this. God didn't do that. Where was God when this 
happened? Where was God when that happened? Why did God allow this? Why did God 
allow that?

      Wait a minute! ... Let's look at the evidence and see for ourselves what 
makes sense and what just might be made up. Never mind what opinion another has 
reached, what opinion do you reach?

      Let's say that the date is 10 BC. You have done something wrong. The 
Torah instructs you to take a lamb to the priest. To lead it to its slaughter.

      It's from your flock. You were there when it was born. You watched it 
grow. You watched it skip and play with its mother amongst the clover. Its 
mother trusts you and comes up to you. Then you lead the lamb away. Take it to 
the priest. It quickly senses something is wrong (animals are very far from 
dumb). It calls out to its mother in vain. When it approaches the blood-soaked 
altar it hears the screams of the other animals. It smells their sweat and 
blood. It walks through the mud and faeces where the other animals have messed 
themselves with fear. It follows suit. It turns to you, pleading with its eyes. 
The priest pulls out a very sharp knife. What do you do?

      Do you say, "It's only a lamb"? Do you think to yourself how God is going 
to enjoy the "pleasing aroma" of this creature's flesh being cooked (as it 
states over and over and over again in Leviticus, for example)?

      Now consider a piece of evidence which does not fit in with Leviticus. 
God states, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." (Hosea 6:6.)

      A few years later, Jesus would tell you to go away and consider what this 
scripture means, but the evidence was there for you, even without Jesus being 
there.

      Do not swim with the tide. Dead fish swim with the tide. Shout out, 
"STOP! STOP!!" Rescue your lamb and return it to its mother. It was YOU who did 
the bad deed, not the lamb. YOU have to pay for it.

      It is our heart condition that counts, not our mental ability (or lack of 
it, in my case). The true spirit of God guides us through our heart, not 
through our head.

      What do we know of God, who we have never seen or met? Only what we can 
sense and feel.

      The Devil is a very clever adversary. A very able false witness in God's 
trial. What is called, in legal terms, an unreliable witness.

      I therefore regard some scriptures as unreliable, and proclaim God to be 
totally innocent as charged. This is why I deny writings to the contrary, even 
if they are printed between the covers of the black book.

      Whilst I might seem frivolous, I'm really sad.  My own daughter believes 
the self same thing as does you and Jack, Neville. I must of course account 
much of the blame for this upon myself, having never given her in her entire 
life any good example such as a real Catholic Christion should, but that only 
serves to prove that I am not unique. 

      I do not have much common ground with Jack, but as regards your daughter 
I understand your position. If you have tried 70 times to convince her of 
something, then put the kettle on, have a cup of tea and, when you have 
finished pulling your hair out, start all over again. But keep in mind that you 
(and the black book) just might be wrong this time, and that she might actually 
see something clearly which you do not presently see at all.

      Regards,

      Neville.



      Phil  er Phul  


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