[GeoStL] Re: commercial caches

I feel the same way, Mike, and even argued the fact when the Illinois reviewer 
wanted me to update my cache listing for Fire is Art.  I had mentioned in the 
cache listing there were items in the cache that were free to take, but the 
reviewer had me remove it due to the commercial clause.

I felt that mentioning the items were there wasn't advertising, but I simply 
stated that they could be taken without leaving something.  He felt that I was 
trying to advertise the business and it had to be removed.

Andrew (yawetag)

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Mike Tollefson 
  To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 11:22 PM
  Subject: [GeoStL] Re: commercial caches


  I must say that the Subway or Crackel Barrel cache never fell under this.   I 
do not need to go inside and interact as the policy states.  I also feel no 
obligation to buy their product while hunting a cache on their property.  Can't 
say how that applies to the commercial clause.  



  Mike




  ----- Original Message ----
  From: Glenn Nash <GLNash@xxxxxxxxxx>
  To: geocaching@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 6:18:20 PM
  Subject: [GeoStL] commercial caches


  -
  Stephen Martin wrote:
  I thought in order for it to be consider commercial the cache listing has to 
encourage buying there.  Otherwise all the Subway caches should also be out.

  Stephen

  ------------------

  Nope.

  What the guidelines say is... "*Commercial Caches*: *Commercial caches 
  attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool 
  /directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) /to solicit 
  customers through a Geocaching.com listing. *These are NOT permitted. 
  Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or 
  locations that sell products or services. If the finder is required to 
  go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a 
  product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial.

  Some exceptions can be made. In these situations, permission can be 
  given by Groundspeak. However, *permission should be asked /first/ 
  before posting*. If you are in doubt, ask first.  If you do not have 
  advance permission, your reviewer will refer you to Groundspeak."


  It is the  soliciting business  indirectly or  non-intentionally  part 
  that makes all these caches commercial in my opinion. 

  I *used* to not allow anything even remotely placed near  stores since 
  someone may */non-intentionally/ *be influenced to go buy an ice cream 
  cone since the cache is on the windowsill of the ice cream place and the 
  cache is called "57 Varieties" (or whatever baskin robins uses.  I *used 
  *to never allow lamppost caches at walmart for the same reason PLUS it 
  is private property and people HAVE been arrested for caching at the 
  walmart.  I also never used to allow caches that even mention a  
  business. Caches such as "Head for the border" ... at the cache you will 
  see a TacoBell close by. Not allowed again for obvious commercial reasons.

  I used to NOT allow alot of things that, if you read the guidelines  are 
  clearly not allowed.

  A  reviewer friend told me a while back,  " 'Ya just have to pick your 
  battles carefully, fight the important ones and let the other go 'cause 
  ya cant fight them all".   I am pretty much tired of fighting to keep 
  things strictly as the guidelines say they should be. Cachers will whine 
  'till the cows come home about how they feel that they are being 
  slighted because their ammobox full of fireworks at the airport wasn't 
  published or  the cache inside the ice cream place is all in good fun & 
  I must be an ass (well that is true but thats another story) or that I 
  clearly cant read because billy bob 2 states over just did the same 
  thing or I have permission so I don't need no stinking 0.1 mile  density 
  rules... and on, and on, and on nearly every day it is something else. 
  Most often it is from cachers that know the guidelines better than I do 
  and know better. It's all about how far you can push the envelope and 
  what you can get away with.    So, in the case of commercial caches, I 
  started using a more liberal interpretation of the commercial guidelines 
  some time ago.   Apparently there are a lot of reviewers that cant seem 
  to understand the "non-intentional"  portion of the guidelines so  I am 
  using what seems to be commonly used and it cuts down on my complaints. 

  A cache that says "come to tacobell, buy a taco and ask for the cache"  
  will not get listed for obvious reasons but if a cache mentions "go past 
  the tacobell about a mile and the park will be on the right" it is now 
  OK.   The T.B. was used only as a landmark and no one was asked to go 
  there. "Ooooh a tocobell, we can stop on the way". Even the mention of 
  tacobell makes me want to stop but thats just me.   Doesn't seem right 
  to me but it has passed muster with  groundspeak (for the moment) so I 
  let it go.  "I wrote this on my subway sandwich wrapper so i would 
  remember so here is the cache" ..... Nothing says I need to go there so, 
  what the heck. Seems just like the (non)taco bell cache to me and so 
  here they are. 

  For caches on private property like parking lots,  it really depends on 
  a lot of things.  If the cache does mention that there is permission and 
  does not mention the business, OK. If there is no permission and it 
  mentions the business and it is a new cacher, they may not be aware of 
  some things and I will explain.  If things seem OK, then we sometimes 
  proceed.  Many times they are not up to the risk and back out.

  A lot of the guidelines are pretty matter of fact but their application 
  is not so easy. The interpretation of the guidelines also changes over 
  time.     Commercial caches are  one of those case by case, moment by 
  moment things.     If there is a cache or cacher that will not work with 
  me on an issue and insists on giving me problems now I just send them up 
  to groundspeak and they say NO  and that is the end of it. 


  Anybody know much about boats?  I wanna buy a boat and a house on the 
  lake and a slip at the marina, a bar would be nice too.  Anybody have a 
  job that pays a lot of money where I can work from home with no real 
  talent or knowledge of anything?  I wanna go back on vacation.   :-) 

  I have lake vacation pictures in the works, will post the link when i 
  get them ready.



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