I just felt that I must point out that Batya (whose posts I always enjoy, I must say) mis-quoted Tennyson. The actual line is "Theirs not to make reply, Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do AND die" rather than do OR die. The point was that the soldiers of the Light Brigade realised that the order to charge the Russian guns was nonsensical and that the charge itself would be suicidal. However, they felt that they had no choice in the matter. Tennyson, the Poet Laureate, was praising the fact that they did not disobey orders. I have always understood this in the light of the year of revolutions, 1848, that came a few years before the Crimean War broke out. The fact that the Light Brigade had obeyed an order despite the fact that in the words of the poem "someone had blundered" would serve as an example for the whole of Britain in that the social order in a class- ridden society could be maintained. I know that this is an oft-misquoted line but the difference is significant. I now leave it for you, dear readers, to find the parallels with HOTS and "Oz letmura". Shabbat Shalom David Graniewitz Jerusalem ----------------------------------------------- ** Etni homepage - http://www.etni.org ** for help - ask@xxxxxxxx ** ** to post to this list - etni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** -----------------------------------------------