[elky] Re: Words (Non) (long, but full of content)

  • From: Ray Buck <rbuck@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:06:53 -0700

Nice. Remind me to nominate you for a Nobel Prize in literature. If some unnamed president can get one, you otta be a shoo-in. :) 


r
ps...I like the Smoky Mt part.


At 01:18 PM 2/7/2010, you wrote:


In the House was a box
in the box was a fox
The fox got no air, and lost all it's hair,
so he put on a new pair of socks.

  Don't ask.
-Smoky Mt Frank-
In a message dated 2/7/2010 2:32:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dragan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: 
Ray,
We have far less to disagree about than you may think. My thesis was this. Ray is writing up the technical problems and solutions involved in building an extraordinary computer. A word that seemed out of place in this delicately communication based dialog popped up. I took exception to it based on my knowlege. No poetry, no music, and no words for emotional effects. Technical explanations. Precision in thought and language. If you have to search for meanings then communication levels drop, perhaps to zero. 

Then it got out of hand. Sigh.
I must include a poem that means something, without interpretation and feelings and fuzzy logic. Also no psychoactive substances were consumed during the writing. 

THE BATTLE OF BLENHEIM

by: Robert Southey (1774-1843)

[]
T was a summer evening,

Old Kaspar's work was done,

And he before his cottage door

Was sitting in the sun,

And by him sported on the green

His little grandchild Wilhelmine.



She saw her brother Peterkin

Roll something large and round

Which he beside the rivulet

In playing there had found;

He came to ask what he had found,

That was so large, and smooth, and round.



Old Kaspar took it from the boy,

Who stood expectant by;

And then the old man shook his head,

And with a natural sigh,

"'Tis some poor fellow's skull," said he,

"Who fell in the great victory.



"I find them in the garden,

For there's many here about;

And often when I go to plough,

The ploughshare turns them out!

For many thousand men," said he,

"Were slain in that great victory."



"Now tell us what 'twas all about,"

Young Peterkin, he cries;

And little Wilhelmine looks up

With wonder-waiting eyes;

"Now tell us all about the war,

And what they fought each other for."



"It was the English," Kaspar cried,

"Who put the French to rout;

But what they fought each other for

I could not well make out;

But everybody said," quoth he,

"That 'twas a famous victory.



"My father lived at Blenheim then,

Yon little stream hard by;

They burnt his dwelling to the ground,

And he was forced to fly;

So with his wife and child he fled,

Nor had he where to rest his head.



"With fire and sword the country round

Was wasted far and wide,

And many a childing mother then,

And new-born baby died;

But things like that, you know, must be

At every famous victory.



"They said it was a shocking sight

After the field was won;

For many thousand bodies here

Lay rotting in the sun;

But things like that, you know, must be

After a famous victory.



"Great praise the Duke of Marlbro' won,

And our good Prince Eugene."

"Why, 'twas a very wicked thing!"

Said little Wilhelmine.

"Nay ... nay ... my little girl," quoth he,

"It was a famous victory."



"And everybody praised the Duke

Who this great fight did win."

"But what good came of it at last?"

Quoth little Peterkin.

"Why, that I cannot tell," said he,

"But 'twas a famous victory."

---------------------------------------------------------------

Enough of Southey, back to the subject.


( You left out the first line. One of my favorite songs.

Johnny's in the basement
Mixing up the medicine)
I speak of words as communication, not art. But do as you will as I have only the power to explain. 

Rick Draganowski
(Soli Deo Gloria)

p.s. The vandals took the handles
----- Original Message -----
From: <mailto:rbuck@xxxxxxxxxxxx>Ray Buck
To: <mailto:elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>elky@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:16 AM
Subject: [elky] Re: Words (Non) (long, but full of content)

At 07:21 AM 2/7/2010, you wrote:



I doubt there was much computer games being played in 1350. I rest my case.

Gaming is gambling.

Rick Draganowski
(Soli Deo Gloria)


           Yes but it isn't 1350 and the meanings of words change to adapt
to the current spoken and written language. The dictionary is not set in
stone it's constantly being updated by having words removed and added. Not
enough are removed though.


            Robert Adams
I was gonna send an off list reply, but these two posts have led me to put the whole thing here. It's long, it's pedantic and it's tedious. Just the kinda stuff I tend to write. Continue at your own peril. 

At 08:38 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote:
Just my point Ray. One word cannot have two totally valid meanings and still be understandable in a reasonably literate sentence. That way lies madness. As Humpty Dumpty said. "Words mean what I say they do." Humpty Dumpty declared. 'No more, and no less.'
I have to disagree. That way lies color and imagination. Look at homonyms. "Won word cannot have too valid meanings and still bee understandable inn..." and so on. These are fairly obvious when written but can lead to misunderstandings when spoken. How about this one?
"Van Morrison and Jim Morrison were on their way to Jim Morrison's gym in Van Morrison's van." or was it the other way around? "Jim Morrison and Van Morrison were on their way to Van Morrison's gym in Jim Morrison's van." That one is pretty old and I can't find the rest of it, but it makes light of homonyms, as does the writing of Ogden Nash and Shel Silverstein ( http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/shel_silverstein ) whose writings and poems I shared with my sons when they were young. 

Then there's Bob Dylan's "Subterrainean Homesick Blues":

Mixing up the medicine
Iâ??m on the pavement
Thinking about the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says he?s got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It?s somethin? you did
God knows when
But you?re doin? it again
You better duck down the alley way
Lookin? for a new friend
The man in the coon-skin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got ten

Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin? that the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone?s tapped anyway
Maggie says that many say
They must bust in early may
Orders from the d. a.
Look out kid
Don?t matter what you did
Walk on your tip toes
Don?t try no doz
Better stay away from those
That carry around a fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You don?t need a weather man
To know which way the wind blows

Get sick, get well
Hang around a ink well
Ring bell, hard to tell
If anything is goin? to sell
Try hard, get barred
Get back, write braille
Get jailed, jump bail
Join the army, if you fail
Look out kid
You?re gonna get hit
But losers, cheaters
Six-time users
Hang around the theaters
Girl by the whirlpool
Lookin? for a new fool
Don?t follow leaders
Watch the parkin? meters

Ah get born, keep warm
Short pants, romance, learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed
Try to be a success
Please her, please him, buy gifts
Don?t steal, don?t lift
Twenty years of schoolin?
And they put you on the day shift
Look out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light yourself a candle
Don?t wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals
Don?t wanna be a bum
You better chew gum
The pump don?t work
?cause the vandals took the handles
Rational discourse? What means that in light of those lyrics? But there was a definite message in it and it was only apparent to those who were willing to look for it. More on that subject in my reference to Shakespeare. 



Thus ends rational discourse.
BTW I think more computers are used in "gaming" (Gambling) than in playing video games style "gaming". I am sure more money is involved.
Absolutely. Burroughs had several Medium Systems in big casinos in Las Vegas in the 70s. The stories I heard were...well, let's just say that the security measures were on a par with Ft. Knox. That was only to handle the money. With what's available now, everything has to be wired. I'm not sure what the casinos are doing now, but at one time, people were walking out of them because playing for "play money" wasn't attractive. http://www.zytec.biz/casino.htm Check this out for information about computer controlled (or at least connected) gambling devices.
Another neat concept is the one where Gambling Casinos use the term "Gaming" to eliminate the negative connotations of "Gambling" so once again we slide down the slippery slope. I wonder if you play video games at Casinos? Perhaps for money?
Yes. Video poker is a good example. It's a representation of 5-card stud poker and the video game version and the casino version are almost identical with the exception of the actual money being involved. Another aspect is that on-line casinos and gambling is big business: 
http://www.topusaonlinecasinos.com/
So just the small word "gaming" is filled with cognative dissonance and means simultaneously a child hunched over an X-Box and killing something in a video game and a drunken person at a roulette wheel throwing away his mortgage money. Hmm.. Perhaps both. It could be that one leads to the other. Or am I losing it?
It's one of the aspects of language. You may be losing it, but language is so filled with nuances that in most spoken (and in some cases written) language is inherently ambiguous. English is filled with multiple entendres, homonyms, and other pitfalls of multiple usage. One just hit me and it's almost identical in its dissonance: "boxing." A mental picture of someone happily putting a Christmas gift into a cardboard container or two pugilists trying to beat one another's brains out. What's the difference?
Words mean something, and alternate (and temporary) meanings are just sops for the ignorant in my perhaps less than humble opinion.
English is a polyglot derivative language. It's impossible to be absolutely precise in such a tongue. There's a good example right there. "Tongue" can mean a language, a variant of a language or a part of the body or a part of a piece of wood or a part of a trailer, ad naseum. www.dictionary.com shows 22 different uses for the word. Now, use it as a verb and it further complicates the issue. There are an additional 5 meanings there. Add different conjugations of the verb and declensions of the noun and the ambiguity increases almost exponentially.
So I stick firmly to my guns. And if communication means nothing to my gentle readers perhaps the imprecise direction we seem to be going into 21st Century "Newspeak" is the most comforting recourse.
Well, Rick, go back your Shakespeare and you'll see that he used words in much the same way. Here's just one example: http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/literary/eng211no2.html In this case, much cloaked reference is made to the characters and in a beautiful part at the end, "morning becomes mourning."
Another that I doubt you have much familiarity with is the lyric of the song, "The Battle of Evermore" by Led Zeppelin. Before you dismiss it out of hand as you're wont to do (there's another homonym) read the words, read the analysis (here's a good one: http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=332 ) and listen to the song. It's anything but a headbashing heavy metal song. It's also the only song in which an additional singer is used, in this case, Sandy Denny of Fairport Convention. 

Here are the lyrics.  I find them beautiful:

Led Zeppelin - The Battle of Evermore

With Sandy Denny from Fairport Convention
Robert Plant wrote the lyrics after reading a book on Scottish history. The lyrics are about the everlasting battle between night and day, which can also be interpreted as the battle between good and evil. Plant felt he needed another voice to tell the story. He was the narrator and Sandy Denny represented the people as the town crier. 

Queen of light took her bow
And then she turned to go,
The prince of peace embraced the gloom
And walked the night alone.
Oh, dance in the dark of night,
Sing to the morning light.
The dark lord rides in force tonight
And time will tell us all.
Oh, throw down your plow and hoe,
Rest not to lock your homes.
Side by side we wait the might
Of the darkest of them all.

I hear the horses thunder
Down in the valley below,
I'm waiting for the angels of Avalon,
Waiting for the eastern glow.
The apples of the valley hold,
The seas of happiness,
The ground is rich from tender care,
Repay, do not forget, no, no.
Oh,-------dance in the dark of night,
Sing to the morning light.
The apples turn to brown and black, the tyrants face is red.
Oh the war is common cry, pick up your swords and fly.
The sky is filled with good and bad
That mortals never know.

Oh, well, the night is long, the beads of time pass slow,
Tired eyes on the sunrise, waiting for the eastern glow.
The pain of war cannot exceed
The woe of aftermath,
The drums will shake the castle wall,
The ring wraiths ride in black, ride on.
Sing as you raise your bow,
Shoot straighter than before.
No comfort has the fire at night
That lights the face so cold.
Oh dance in the dark of night,
Sing to the morning light.
The magic runes are writ in gold
To bring the balance back, bring it back.
At last the sun is shining, the clouds of blue roll by,
With flames from the dragon of darkness
The sunlight blinds his eyes.
There are several recorded versions of this song. I just listened to one that I'd never paid a lot of attention to before. It's done by Jimmy Page and Robert Plant in a live performance with Najma Akhtar singing the part Denny sang in one performance and in the studio recording. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najma_Akhtar
As I listened to it, the hair on my arms stood up and tears came to my eyes. It's a very powerful song when viewed as discourse between the town crier and the narrator as the battle between light and dark is described at two levels: 1) light of day and dark of night and 2) Light of good and dark of evil.
If you choose to listen to the studio recording (which is closer to the above lyric than the live Page and Plant version) it's here: www.chevyasylum.com\music\LedZeppelin . It's 8mb, but I strongly suggest giving it a listen.
Taking this one step further, blues music is filled with metaphor, simile and allegory. One could make a case for that genre to be the pinnacle of hidden meanings. This was done for several reasons. First, the blues roots of field hollers and moans dates from the time where slaves (and later, prisoners) couldn't explicitly refer to the masters for whom they worked, so misdirection and hidden meaning was used. Later, it became a bit of a game or I suppose one could call it a valid musical form to avoid explicit lyrics. In Robert Johnson's song, "Traveling Riverside Blues," one can hear Johnson saying, "You know what I'm talkin about?" In the Eric Clapton version, he says (not sings), "That's what I'm talkin about." In these lyrics, they're referring to "squeeze my lemon til the juice runs down my leg." Pretty obvious, but a metaphor nonetheless.
Referring back to your initial example, "Humpty Dumpty," that's nothing BUT misdirection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty including the part that you quote from "Through the looking Glass." I was surprised to read that what I'd read years ago about it referring to the English civil war was, in fact, based on a spoof written in 1956. Circles within circles and mysteries wrapped in conundrums. (Should that be "conundra?"...never mind, it was a rhetorical question.) In any case, in the phrase, "Words mean what I say they do." Humpty Dumpty declared. 'No more, and no less.' (punctuation error excused), you make my case for me in that words are defined by their user, not always by a commonly accepted definition or one that resides in a dictionary.
Speaking of dictionaries, look at the archaic meanings of words and you'll see how language evolves. By strictly clinging to a definition of only one period, one severely limits oneself in comprehension. And even if one chooses to accept only one period's usage of a word, then he cannot accurately use definitions of other words from other periods. That is to say, that when using the word, "gaming" exclusively in its 16th century form would then put the author/speaker/reader/listener into the 16th century and thereby lose meaning of just about every other word in a given sentence or entire lexicon. 



Thanks for your patience
What patience? Here's the way I see it. You call yourself a writer and a poet. I can call myself a writer and an editor, because I do those things, too. If you consider online content to be "published" I have far more published work than you. In my writings (and I believe in yours, too) ambiguity is sometimes used on purpose and sometimes used inadvertently. Tead what I've written so far in my Early Daze re-write: http://chevyasylum.com/earlydaze/Welcome.html
I wish I could give you examples of your usage in this manner, but I've wasted WAY too much time on this discourse and have to get on with today's project which is to install online forum software ( http://www.simplemachines.org/ ) on my web server for www.saveourshipofstate.us , a project I'm working on with a friend from the salt flats racing community. 

No rest for the weary.

r


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