[elky] Re: Words (Non) (long, but full of content)

I take no sides, but I did get bothered over the use of the  word (motor) 
when used to describe an internal combustion engine. Yet the  use of the word 
is everywhere. So, I go with the flow. I may never say (hey,  what size 
motor ya got in there)
ELECTRIC motor, COMBUSTION engine.
OK, just my two cents. 
 
-Smoky Mt Frank- D'OH


In a message dated 2/7/2010 11:16:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
rbuck@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:

At 07:21  AM 2/7/2010, you wrote:



I doubt there was much computer  games being played in 1350. I rest my case.

Gaming is  gambling.

Rick Draganowski
(Soli Deo  Gloria)


Yes but it isn't 1350 and the meanings of words change to adapt
to the  current spoken and written language. The dictionary is not set in
stone  it's constantly being updated by having words removed and added.  Not
enough are removed  though.


Robert Adams


I was gonna send an off list reply, but these  two posts have led me to put 
the whole thing here.  It's long, it's  pedantic and it's tedious.  Just 
the kinda stuff I tend to write.   Continue at your own peril.

At 08:38 PM 2/6/2010, you wrote:

Just my point Ray.  One word cannot have two totally valid meanings and 
still be understandable  in a reasonably literate sentence. That way lies 
madness. As Humpty Dumpty  said.  "Words mean what I say they do." Humpty 
Dumpty 
declared. 'No  more, and no less.'

I have to disagree.  That way  lies color and imagination.  Look at 
homonyms.  "Won word cannot  have too valid meanings and still bee 
understandable 
inn..." and so on.   These are fairly obvious when written but can lead to 
misunderstandings when  spoken.  How about this one?

"Van Morrison and Jim Morrison were  on their way to Jim Morrison's gym in 
Van Morrison's van." or was it the other  way around? "Jim Morrison and Van 
Morrison were on their way to Van Morrison's  gym in Jim Morrison's van."  
That one is pretty old and I can't find the  rest of it, but it makes light 
of homonyms, as does the writing of Ogden Nash  and Shel Silverstein ( 
_http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/shel_silverstein_ 
(http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/shel_silverstein)  )  whose writings and 
poems I shared with my 
sons when they were young.   

Then there's Bob Dylan's "Subterrainean Homesick Blues":

Mixing up the medicine
I’m on the pavement
Thinking about  the government
The man in the trench coat
Badge out, laid off
Says  he’s got a bad cough
Wants to get it paid off
Look out kid
It’s  somethin’ you did
God knows when
But you’re doin’ it again
You better  duck down the alley way
Lookin’ for a new friend
The man in the  coon-skin cap
In the big pen
Wants eleven dollar bills
You only got  ten

Maggie comes fleet foot
Face full of black soot
Talkin’ that  the heat put
Plants in the bed but
The phone’s tapped anyway
Maggie  says that many say
They must bust in early may
Orders from the d.  a.
Look out kid
Don’t matter what you did
Walk on your tip  toes
Don’t try no doz
Better stay away from those
That carry around a  fire hose
Keep a clean nose
Watch the plain clothes
You don’t need a  weather man
To know which way the wind blows

Get sick, get  well
Hang around a ink well
Ring bell, hard to tell
If anything is  goin’ to sell
Try hard, get barred
Get back, write braille
Get  jailed, jump bail
Join the army, if you fail
Look out kid
You’re  gonna get hit
But losers, cheaters
Six-time users
Hang around the  theaters
Girl by the whirlpool
Lookin’ for a new fool
Don’t follow  leaders
Watch the parkin’ meters

Ah get born, keep warm
Short  pants, romance, learn to dance
Get dressed, get blessed
Try to be a  success
Please her, please him, buy gifts
Don’t steal, don’t  lift
Twenty years of schoolin’
And they put you on the day shift
Look  out kid
They keep it all hid
Better jump down a manhole
Light  yourself a candle
Don’t wear sandals
Try to avoid the scandals
Don’t  wanna be a bum
You better chew gum
The pump don’t work
’cause the  vandals took the handles

Rational discourse?  What means  that in light of those lyrics?  But there 
was a definite message in it  and it was only apparent to those who were 
willing to look for it.  More  on that subject in my reference to Shakespeare.



Thus ends  rational discourse.

BTW I think more  computers are used in "gaming" (Gambling) than in playing 
video games style  "gaming". I am sure more money is  involved.

Absolutely.  Burroughs had several  Medium Systems in big casinos in Las 
Vegas in the 70s.  The stories I  heard were...well, let's just say that the 
security measures were on a par  with Ft. Knox.  That was only to handle the 
money.  With what's  available now, everything has to be wired.  I'm not 
sure what the casinos  are doing now, but at one time, people were walking out 
of them because  playing for "play money" wasn't attractive.
_http://www.zytec.biz/casino.htm_ (http://www.zytec.biz/casino.htm)   Check 
this  out for information about computer controlled (or at least connected) 
gambling  devices.



Another neat  concept is the one where Gambling Casinos use the term 
"Gaming" to eliminate  the negative connotations of "Gambling" so once again we 
slide down the  slippery slope. I wonder if you play video games at Casinos? 
Perhaps for  money?

Yes.  Video poker is a good example.   It's a representation of 5-card stud 
poker and the video game version and the  casino version are almost 
identical with the exception of the actual money  being involved.  Another 
aspect 
is that on-line casinos and gambling is  big business:
_http://www.topusaonlinecasinos.com/

_ (http://www.topusaonlinecasinos.com/) 

So just the  small word "gaming" is filled with cognative dissonance and 
means  simultaneously a child hunched over an X-Box and killing something in a 
 video game and a drunken person at a roulette wheel throwing away his  
mortgage money. Hmm.. Perhaps both. It could be that one leads to the other.  
Or am I losing it?

It's one of the aspects of  language.  You may be losing it, but language 
is so filled with nuances  that in most spoken (and in some cases written) 
language is inherently  ambiguous.  English is filled with multiple entendres, 
homonyms, and  other pitfalls of multiple usage.  One just hit me and it's 
almost  identical in its dissonance: "boxing."  A mental picture of someone  
happily putting a Christmas gift into a cardboard container or two 
pugilists  trying to beat one another's brains out.  What's the difference?   



Words mean  something, and alternate (and temporary) meanings are just sops 
for the  ignorant in my perhaps less than humble opinion.  

English is a polyglot derivative language.  It's  impossible to be 
absolutely precise in such a tongue.  There's a good  example right there.  
"Tongue" 
can mean a  language, a variant of a  language or a part of the body or a 
part of a piece of wood or a part of a  trailer, ad naseum.   
_www.dictionary.com_ (http://www.dictionary.com/)   shows 22 different uses for 
the  word.  
Now, use it as a verb and it further complicates the issue.   There are an 
additional 5 meanings there.  Add different conjugations of  the verb and 
declensions of the noun and the ambiguity increases almost  exponentially.



So I stick  firmly to my guns. And if communication means nothing to my 
gentle readers  perhaps the imprecise direction we seem to be going into 21st 
Century  "Newspeak" is the most comforting recourse. 

Well,  Rick, go back your Shakespeare and you'll see that he used words in 
much the  same way.  Here's just one example: 
_http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/literary/eng211no2.html_ 
(http://www.compleatheretic.com/pubs/literary/eng211no2.html)    In this case, 
much cloaked reference is made to the 
characters and in a  beautiful part at the end, "morning becomes mourning."  

Another  that I doubt you have much familiarity with is the lyric of the 
song, "The  Battle of Evermore" by Led Zeppelin.  Before you dismiss it out of 
hand  as you're wont to do (there's another homonym) read the words, read 
the  analysis (here's a good one: http://www.songfacts.com/detail.php?id=332 
) and  listen to the song.  It's anything but a headbashing heavy metal  
song.  It's also the only song in which an additional singer is used, in  this 
case, Sandy Denny of Fairport Convention.  

Here are the  lyrics.  I find them beautiful:

Led Zeppelin - The Battle of Evermore

With  Sandy Denny from Fairport Convention

Robert Plant wrote the lyrics  after reading a book on Scottish history. 
The lyrics are about the everlasting  battle between night and day, which can 
also be interpreted as the battle  between good and evil.
Plant felt he needed another voice to tell the  story. He was the narrator 
and Sandy Denny represented the people as the town  crier.

Queen of  light took her bow
And then she turned to go,
The prince of peace  embraced the gloom
And walked the night alone.
Oh, dance in the dark of  night,
Sing to the morning light.
The dark lord rides in force  tonight
And time will tell us all.
Oh, throw down your plow and  hoe,
Rest not to lock your homes.
Side by side we wait the might
Of  the darkest of them all.

I hear the horses thunder
Down in the  valley below,
I'm waiting for the angels of Avalon,
Waiting for the  eastern glow.
The apples of the valley hold,
The seas of  happiness,
The ground is rich from tender care,
Repay, do not forget,  no, no.
Oh,-------dance in the dark of night,
Sing to the morning  light.
The apples turn to brown and black, the tyrants face is red.
Oh  the war is common cry, pick up your swords and fly.
The sky is filled with  good and bad
That mortals never know.

Oh, well, the night is long,  the beads of time pass slow,
Tired eyes on the sunrise, waiting for the  eastern glow.
The pain of war cannot exceed
The woe of aftermath,
The  drums will shake the castle wall,
The ring wraiths ride in black, ride  on.
Sing as you raise your bow,
Shoot straighter than before.
No  comfort has the fire at night
That lights the face so cold.
Oh dance in  the dark of night,
Sing to the morning light.
The magic runes are writ  in gold
To bring the balance back, bring it back.
At last the sun is  shining, the clouds of blue roll by,
With flames from the dragon of  darkness
The sunlight blinds his eyes.

There are several  recorded versions of this song.  I just listened to one 
that I'd never  paid a lot of attention to before.  It's done by Jimmy Page 
and Robert  Plant in a live performance with Najma Akhtar singing the part 
Denny sang in  one performance and in the studio recording.   
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najma_Akhtar

_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najma_Akhtar) As I  listened to it, the 
hair on my arms stood up and tears came to my eyes.   It's a very powerful song 
when viewed as discourse between the town crier and  the narrator as the 
battle between light and dark is described at two levels:  1) light of day and 
dark of night and 2) Light of good and dark of evil.   

If you choose to listen to the studio recording (which is closer to  the 
above lyric than the live Page and Plant version) it's here: 
_www.chevyasylum.com\music\LedZeppelin_ 
(http://www.chevyasylum.com/music/LedZeppelin)  .  
It's 8mb,  but I strongly suggest giving it a listen.  

Taking this one step  further, blues music is filled with metaphor, simile 
and allegory.  One  could make a case for that genre to be the pinnacle of 
hidden meanings.   This was done for several reasons.  First, the blues roots 
of field  hollers and moans dates from the time where slaves (and later, 
prisoners)  couldn't explicitly refer to the masters for whom they worked, so 
misdirection  and hidden meaning was used.  Later, it became a bit of a game 
or I  suppose one could call it a valid musical form to avoid explicit 
lyrics.   In Robert Johnson's song, "Traveling Riverside Blues," one can hear 
Johnson  saying, "You know what I'm talkin about?"  In the Eric Clapton 
version,  he says (not sings), "That's what I'm talkin about."  In these 
lyrics,  
they're referring to "squeeze my lemon til the juice runs down my leg."   
Pretty obvious, but a metaphor nonetheless.

Referring back to your  initial example, "Humpty Dumpty," that's nothing 
BUT misdirection:
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty_ 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty)  including the  part that you 
quote from "Through the looking 
Glass."  I was surprised to  read that what I'd read years ago about it 
referring to the English civil war  was, in fact, based on a spoof written in 
1956.  Circles within circles  and mysteries wrapped in conundrums.  (Should 
that be "conundra?"...never  mind, it was a rhetorical question.)  In any 
case, in the phrase, "Words  mean what I say they do." Humpty Dumpty declared. 
'No more, and no less.'  (punctuation error excused), you make my case for 
me in that words are defined  by their user, not always by a commonly 
accepted definition or one that  resides in a dictionary.

Speaking of dictionaries, look at the archaic  meanings of words and you'll 
see how language evolves.  By strictly  clinging to a definition of only 
one period, one severely limits oneself in  comprehension.  And even if one 
chooses to accept only one period's usage  of a word, then he cannot 
accurately use definitions of other words from other  periods.  That is to say, 
that 
when using the word, "gaming" exclusively  in its 16th century form would 
then put the author/speaker/reader/listener  into the 16th century and thereby 
lose meaning of just about every other word  in a given sentence or entire 
lexicon.  



Thanks for your  patience

What patience?  Here's the way I see  it.  You call yourself a writer and a 
poet.  I can call myself a  writer and an editor, because I do those 
things, too.  If you consider  online content to be "published" I have far more 
published work than  you.  In my writings (and I believe in yours, too) 
ambiguity is sometimes  used on purpose and sometimes used inadvertently.  Tead 
what I've written  so far in my Early Daze re-write: 
_http://chevyasylum.com/earlydaze/Welcome.html_ 
(http://chevyasylum.com/earlydaze/Welcome.html)  

I  wish I could give you examples of your usage in this manner, but I've 
wasted  WAY too much time on this discourse and have to get on with today's 
project  which is to install online forum software ( 
_http://www.simplemachines.org/_ (http://www.simplemachines.org/)  ) on my web 
server for 
_www.saveourshipofstate.us_ (http://www.saveourshipofstate.us/)  , a project 
I'm 
working on with  a friend from the salt flats racing community.

No rest for the  weary.

r

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