[bksvol-discuss] Re: using machines for what they were meant to do - Long Post
- From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 08:00:32 -0400
Hi E.
As a volunteer who is a programmer. Not for Bookshare.
Thanks.
Jim
James D Homme, Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
"The difference between those who get what they wish for and those who
don't is action. Therefore, every action you take is a complete
success,regardless of the results." -- Jerrold Mundis
Highmark internal only: For usability and accessibility:
http://highwire.highmark.com/sites/iwov/hwt093/
"E."
<thoth93@earthlin
k.net> To
Sent by: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
bksvol-discuss-bo cc
unce@xxxxxxxxxxxx
g Subject
[bksvol-discuss] Re: using machines
for what they were meant to do -
09/10/2008 04:33 Long Post
PM
Please respond to
bksvol-discuss@fr
eelists.org
Jim are you speaking as a programmer actually familiar with bookshare
engineering and working with them or as a volunteer here?
E.
At 01:36 PM 9/10/2008, you wrote:
>Hi E.
>That is a good thing if the same publisher always uses the same settings,
>but that may not be the case. The thing to do would be to get all
>publishers to submit books in the same format. If that can't be done, then
>have each publisher agree to submit in a particular format. Predictability
>is what we would want.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Jim
>
>
>James D Homme, Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
>james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>
>"The difference between those who get what they wish for and those who
>don't is action. Therefore, every action you take is a complete
>success,regardless of the results." -- Jerrold Mundis
>Highmark internal only: For usability and accessibility:
>http://highwire.highmark.com/sites/iwov/hwt093/
>
>
>
> "E."
> <thoth93@earthlin
> k.net>
To
> Sent by: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> bksvol-discuss-bo
cc
> unce@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> g
Subject
> [bksvol-discuss] Re: using
machines
> for what they were meant to do -
> 09/10/2008 01:03 Long Post
> PM
>
>
> Please respond to
> bksvol-discuss@fr
> eelists.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I only did a bit of Cobol maintenancing programming in the eighties
>so my skill is limited.
>
>Your example makes me wonder if software can be told which publisher
>the book being worked on comes from. Then the machine do this in such
>and such a case and something different when dealing with a different
>publisher.
>
>E.
>
>
>At 12:51 PM 9/10/2008, you wrote:
> >Hi E.
> >Unfortunately, machines like it better when they can predict what they
are
> >going to process. Using mark up is one way to attempt to make it easier
on
> >the machines to do what They do. If this works out, publishers may be
able
> >to automate creating the mark up the bookshare software needs, which is
> >good. Humans can help to do that, but unfortunately, as volunteers, we
may
> >not have the luxury of being able to do it right away. It may be
possible
> >to do some of it though.
> >
> >Here is one example where humans may need to intervene. When you scan a
> >book from publisher A, they use font A, size A, style A to mark up their
> >chapter headings. When you scan a book from publisher B, they use Font
B,
> >Size B, Style B to mark up their chapter headings. A machine would have
no
> >way to know how to deal with that ahead of time. Human judgement must
come
> >into play. You might be able to take your scanning software and, when
you
> >see patterns, tell your scanning software to replace Font B, Size B,
Style
> >B with Font A, Size A, Style A, assuming that there is a convention that
> >everyone decided on for which fonts, styles, and sizes chapter headings
> >will be marked up at. Then, you could stipulate to the machine that it
>will
> >look for Font A, Size A, Style A, and mark up chapter headers with
>whatever
> >DAISY code it does that with. Or, you may be able to create Word macros
> >that can look through documents and insert four colons in front of any
> >paragraphs whose text has a certain Word style or font attributes. For
any
> >documents that don't adhere to whatever conventions we come up with,
>humans
> >are going to have to intervene at some point, because there is bound to
be
> >text that the machines can't process. The machines should be smart
enough
> >to reject a book, act like a compiler, and spit out messages that say
that
> >on line n it didn't understand the formatting, so it left it alone.
Humans
> >would have to go in and fix the issue and run the book through the
machine
> >again.
> >
> >Computers aren't magical. They're pretty stupid. We have to think for
>them.
> >Once things are set up, they can take a lot of the work away from us and
> >make us more efficient, which is something I am for, because that would
>get
> >tons more books into the system.
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >James D Homme, Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
> >james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
> >
> >"The difference between those who get what they wish for and those who
> >don't is action. Therefore, every action you take is a complete
> >success,regardless of the results." -- Jerrold Mundis
> >Highmark internal only: For usability and accessibility:
> >http://highwire.highmark.com/sites/iwov/hwt093/
> >
> >
> >
> > "E."
> > <thoth93@earthlin
> > k.net>
>To
> > Sent by: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > bksvol-discuss-bo
>cc
> > unce@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > g
>Subject
> > [bksvol-discuss] using machines
>for
> > what they were meant to do
> > 09/10/2008 12:17
> > PM
> >
> >
> > Please respond to
> > bksvol-discuss@fr
> > eelists.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >This is a rather long message. I am going to speak about hardware and
> >software as it relates to bookshare books. I may wax a bit
> >philosohical. The underlying path is a matter of philosophy.
> >
> >Bookshare is adding many many books to our library at a ever more
> >rapid rate. Bookshare could get away with inferior tools like the
> >stripper in its younger days. Kind of like a teenager driving an old
> >car that breaks down a lot.
> >
> >As bookshare has matured, the quality of some of its underlying
> >software has come up for criticism. That includes the stripper,
> >braille translation program, and other conversion tools.
> >I want to use my human brain to do things machines cannot do. A
> >properly configured hardware and software conbination will translate
> >correctly, and strip elegantly. (pause for fantasy please)
> >
> >Returning from fantasy to reality. I know the up front expense may be
> >high. I know calculators now do what we used to write out by hand.
> >Let's all work together so humans can do what they do best and let's
> >use technology as well as we can in the process.
> >
> >Relying on "brute force" human methods is so expense in terms of human
> >energy.
> >
> >I am truly concerned about the learning curve. Maybe if I know more
> >from engineering, it will be easier to understand the underlying
> >philosophy of what seems to me "brute force" methods. I know I can
> >grind coffee beans by hand and save electricity but do I want to?
> >
> >E.
> >
> >At 07:39 AM 9/10/2008, you wrote:
> > >You are probably right E, but, given our experiences with the
> > >bookshare tool, do we really want to go down that road?
> > >
> > >Maybe if the daisy converter could put the codes in, and we could
> > >double check to make sure they are right.
> > >
> > >Bob
> > >----- Original Message ----- From: "E." <thoth93@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 3:10 AM
> > >Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: where to download my novel
> > >
> > >
> > >>I go to conferences where they have seminars discussing the making
> > >>of Daisy books.I always thought engineering and software took care
> > >>of converting files to Daisy format. I am willing to insert tags.
> > >>Yet I wonder if this can perhaps be automated with conversion
software.
> > >>
> > >>Asking volunteers to hand insert appropriate Daisy tags instead of
> > >>creating daisy files with appropriate software confuses me. Perhaps
> > >>it is because I know little about the software used to create Daisy
> >formatting.
> > >>
> > >>E.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>At 03:15 PM 9/9/2008, you wrote:
> > >>>"An Involuntary King: A Tale of Anglo Saxon England" will be on
> > >>>Bookshare... but in the meantime, you can download a PDF of it at
> > >>>
> > >>><http://www.sendspace.com/file/3fjbxt>http://www.sendspace.com/
> file/3fjbxt
> > >>>
> > >>>They only hold it for a few days, so if you don't get to it just
> > >>>let me know and i will upload it again.
> > >>>
> > >>>Can't wait to hear what you think of the book.
> > >>>
> > >>>It's rated R, by the way.. graphic violence and sex.
> > >>>
> > >>>Nan Hawthorne
> > >>><http://www.nanhawthorne.com>www.nanhawthorne.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>__________ NOD32 3429 (20080909) Information __________
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