Hey All, I was conducting an experiment at Sentinel on Thursday and Friday. Not really scientific, but some interesting realizations came from it. I had purchased a heavy winter coverall, similar to what Steve and AJ have been wearing for years, and this was the first time using it. Knowing that this item in itself is not the end of being cold, I also brought a large amount of what I used to bring "just in case." My layering for Thursday night was like this.... Microfleece underpants and undershirt. (Like Tom says, "give fleece a chance.") Jeans. (I know, I know, cotton=bad, but it worked for me...it's not like I'm skiing in this get up.) Capilene "liner" socks with Thorlo extreme winter socks on top in my regular hiking boots laced loosely. T-shirt and long sleeved shirt (not cotton, but some blend of synthetics) My head got a knit stocking cap and some fleece "behind the head" earmuffs. (the earmuffs were an Xmas gift, and I have to say they worked very well....) This was fine for just as the sun was setting and about 1/2 hour later. As the temp dropped, I started layering more stuff on my torso. My legs really don't get too cold, so I could let them go for a while. My top layering was a synthetic wool pullover (useless if it's windy), and is quite warm. Once I get chilly in this amount of stuff, I either need to put on a wind resistant layer, or in this case, my new winter coveralls. I took off the wool top layer and put on the coveralls, and despite the 30 degree temp, I can't say I even got chilly EXCEPT when I sat down in my camp chair. My back got cold where the outfit was being compressed. The insulated hood on the coveralls went a long ways towards helping me forget that it was cold out. Another interesting note I observed is that I didn't put on my snowboots I brought along, and my feet only got slightly chilly, and not unbearably so. I did have toe warmers, but it probably would've been overkill. I'm going to credit the coveralls with keeping my legs warm and in turn my feet. I also noticed that I wasn't running for my glove/mittens like I usually do. Between my arms staying warmer, and in turn, my hands, slipping my hands in the pocket of the coveralls for a minute or two thawed them out sufficiently. The following night only got down to 37, but I did put on my snowboots early, and the feet NEVER got even close to cold. I also overdid it a bit by putting on my synthwool top under the coveralls, and was roasting a short while later despite standing relatively still. I took it off, and was much more comfy for it. At least I know that I can overdo it. Now I won't be as likely to think that it'll be too cold to go out to observe. And for any lurkers on this list who think that we're wimps for crying cold about 30 degrees, I'd invite you to visit us in July/August. Thad -- See message header for info on list archives or unsubscribing, and please send personal replies to the author, not the list.