Ruthanne, Many thanks for your comments - I really appreciate them. I hadn't thought of the possible problems you raise but I do see where=20= someone can make a mountain out of a molehill. I must admit that I tend=20= to disregard those who see a "red under every bed" mainly because these=20= type of people spend a disproportionate amount of time protecting=20 perceptions instead of getting on with a productive and happy life -=20 their decision, their consequence. However, I do agree that they tends=20= to be very vocal and quite easily provide a perception of import that=20 is not there. I think I can overcome the problem by defining an inspecting=20 veterinarian as one not either in the employ of the participating=20 breeder or the woner of the animal. I would be most reluctant to draw=20 the line any further because, as you point out, there are plenty of=20 related business transactions between people that make real distance=20 really hard to achieve. I would rely instead, on the professionalism of the veterinarian=20 reputation and qualification. The fact of the matter is that the name on the proforma is that of a=20 professional veterinarian who has both a qualification and reputation=20 to maintain. i trust that this is sufficient reason for those=20 veterinarians who even sniff a conflict of interest will recuse=20 themselves to maintain the integrity of the assessment. I personally would apply the same perspective to the treatment of=20 judges at shows. This practice of isolating the judges before a show,=20 during the show and also disallowing people who have dealt with the=20 judge in the six months prior to the show exhibits, to me, a lack of=20 maturity with both the proponents of this regime and the industry as a=20= whole that does not have enough faith in a person to extend them the=20 courtesy of professional attitude and integrity. But that is another matter I guess! I hope this answers your question but if it doesn't and anyone else=20 would like to comment, please do. Kind regards, Ian Watt On Sunday, Apr 18, 2004, at 09:29 US/Pacific, Ruthanne McCaslin wrote: > Ian, > > Your proposal sounds very promising. I am interested in=20 > participating. I, > too, would like info on the reference lab for doing the biopsies as=20= > soon as > possible as we are starting to shear now. > > In the matter of transpaency, have you considered that in the US=20 > there are > a significant number of alpaca breeders who are also veterinarians? =20= > This > could produce a percieved or real conflict of interest. Certainly I=20= > would > not think of doing the veterinary inspection on my own animals, and=20= > those I > have sold to others, but should I also exclude myself from doing=20 > those of > other breeders with whom I do not have a business relationship? What=20= > about > the friendships that develope at shows and confernces? Somehow in the=20= > small > comunity of the alpaca world, it seems we are all conected. Also = what > about the larger farms who have a veterinarian or two on their staff? > > I think that most veterinarians are very objective and highly ethical > people, but there are perceptions to be addressed and the sour grapes=20= > of > someone whose animal failed against someone else whose animal passed=20= > if, > say, the second breeder was the vet's best client and the first was=20= > six > months in arrears on his vet bills. Even if the vet was meticulously > impartial and the animal that passes deserved to pass and the animal=20= > that > failed deserved to fail, that has never yet stopped a determined=20 > whiner. > Whiners are a very, very small percentage of the alpaca community, =20 > who by > and large are the nicest folks on earth, but they tend to make=20 > themselves > heard over the pleasantries of the majority. > > I am not trying to create problems here, just help you think ahead = and > prevent them. I totally agree that integrity, both real and=20 > percieved, is > what creates the value in a program of this nature. I hope to hear=20 > more > soon. > > Wishing you nothing but the best, > > Ruthanne > > Ruthanne McCaslin, DVM > Promised Land Farm Alpacas > Chardon, Ohio > www.blackalpaca.com > >> From: Ian Watt <alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> Reply-To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Re: FW: Sire Reference Program >> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 15:06:39 -0700 >> >> Wayne, >> I did receive your earlier mail but then I went off to England for a >> couple of weeks!! Great trip travelling the canals of Shropshire and >> Wales in a narrow boat - guaranteed stress buster! >> I am awaiting a note from my Australian lab with all the details and >> will be incorporating them into the final release of the plan. I have >> had a good response from a very limited mail out and am confident = that >> it will appeal to those forward thinkers who want to work away from=20= >> the >> show circuit. I will let you know the details as soon as I have them = - >> hopefully later this week. >> The advance copies of the book have arrived and I am posting your = copy >> on Monday. It looks better than I had hoped which is both exciting = and >> a relief! >> Hope you are well. >> Cheers, >> Ian >> On Wednesday, Apr 7, 2004, at 05:58 US/Pacific, Sixth Day Farm wrote: >> >>> Hi Ian, >>> >>> I'm re-sending this as I never got a response about the lab doing = the >>> skin biopsies so I thought perhaps you didn't get the e-mail. >>> >>> Best Wishes, >>> >>> Wayne >>> >>> ***************************************************** >>> Dr. and Mrs. Wayne C. Jarvis "In the beginning, God >>> created.... " >>> = Genesis >>> 1:1 >>> >>> home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.sixthdayfarm.com >>> >>> Everyone talks about genetic improvement, at Sixth Day Farm we're=20 >>> DOING >>> IT. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sixth Day Farm [mailto:home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:27 PM >>> To: 'alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' >>> Subject: RE: [alpaca_fibre] Sire Reference Program >>> >>> Hi Ian, >>> >>> I am getting ready to do biopsies at our shearing day in May. I have >>> everything I need to take the samples. I was going to send them to=20= >>> the >>> histology lab at OSU for slides to be made and then read them = myself, >>> but would prefer to send them to a lab in the US that already >>> understands reading them for S/P ratio and density. Tell me about = the >>> processing you have available: how and where to send the samples,=20 >>> cost, >>> and exactly how and what they will report. Thanks! >>> >>> Also, The G.A.I.N. will be up and running by June. Any of your list >>> members who want to send in all of this phenotypic data that they = are >>> collecting for the sire reference site can submit the data for their >>> sires, and or their hembras as well, and get computer generated=20 >>> reports >>> of EPDs for all of the important traits that they want to select for >>> and >>> make genetic predictions about the offspring for. Any who don't = know >>> about what EPDs are and their value for accelerating genetic gain in >>> their herds can read the chapters on genetics in your upcoming >>> International Alpaca Handbook, or the articles I wrote for Alpacas >>> Magazine in 2002 and 2003, or the article on EPDs on Mike Safley's >>> website excerpted from his book, or they can come to my lectures at=20= >>> the >>> AOBA National Conference in Louisville. >>> >>> Wayne >>> >>> P.S. Don't tell me the handbook is really being printed ALREADY! >>> >>> ***************************************************** >>> Dr. and Mrs. Wayne C. Jarvis "In the beginning, God >>> created.... " >>> = Genesis >>> 1:1 >>> >>> home@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.sixthdayfarm.com >>> >>> Everyone talks about genetic improvement, at Sixth Day Farm we're=20 >>> DOING >>> IT. >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [mailto:alpaca_fibre-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ian Watt >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 8:03 PM >>> To: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [alpaca_fibre] Sire Reference Program >>> >>> I am delighted to announce that I have found a laboratory to=20 >>> undertake >>> the follicle and density counts for alpacas both here and in=20 >>> Australia. >>> I have also secured a website to be called alpacasiresUSA.com which >>> will be the home of the new sire listing I wrote to you all about >>> several months ago. >>> I have extended the original concept to now include some phenotype >>> features that may help disclose the underlying genotype of sires of=20= >>> the >>> future. I am awaiting a response from Elizabeth Paul and will, in = all >>> probability, include details of gum, toenail, point and eyelid = colour >>> in the sire disclosure list. I would be very interested if anyone = has >>> any comments about this aspect of the project. >>> I am pasting the new program guidelines into this email for you to >>> peruse and consider. If you have any comments, I would greatly >>> appreciate you airing them on this site so we can all share the >>> thoughts. >>> Incidentally, another 20 odd breeders have joined the list as they >>> attended a workshop in California several weeks ago. New workshops=20= >>> are >>> planned for Maine, Colorado and Virginia later this year. >>> And the International Alpaca Handbook is finally off the presses and=20= >>> at >>> the bindery awaiting binding!! >>> Cheers, >>> Ian Watt >>> >>> ALPACA SIRE REFERENCE PROGRAM >>> >>> Preamble >>> Selection of sires is possibly the single most important breeding >>> decision any owner makes in striving for excellence in their alpaca >>> business. >>> The impact of a sire across a herd is more significant than any = other >>> single breeding decision. >>> The American alpaca industry uses more sires across its national = herd >>> than is probably necessary. Supporters of a wide gene pool for the >>> industry would dispute this, but, from a production perspective, it=20= >>> is >>> hard to argue an alternative point of view. >>> The lack of a breed standard (for the industry) allows the broadest >>> possible interpretation on what comprises an acceptable=20 >>> conformation. A >>> show standard goes beyond what is, or could reasonably be expected=20= >>> of, >>> an animal primarily devoted to fibre production ie the show standard >>> aims at a much higher level of conformation correctness than is=20 >>> usually >>> reflected in a fibre production breeding emphasis. >>> Breeders who aim for fibre excellence in their alpacas often lack = the >>> tools with which to make informed and productive genetic selections. >>> Too often males are offered for service that have little or no >>> supportive objective data that provide objectively obtained=20 >>> information >>> for the female owner and breeder. This information may not be=20 >>> important >>> to many breeders (at the moment) but will become increasingly=20 >>> important >>> as the rate of genetic improvement becomes harder and harder to >>> achieve. This is reflected most dramatically when the phenotype >>> differences between animals being considered for joining are not >>> immediately or apparently obvious. >>> Breeders seeking superior fibre characteristics and production will=20= >>> be >>> looking for more than show results and perceived quality than is >>> currently the industry standard in the United States. >>> Breeders aiming to sit inside the top 20% or better of the national >>> herd (any national herd) will seek more and more objectively = measured >>> information to aid their individual selection processes. >>> Professionally oriented breeders will adopt a much more challenging >>> approach to the selection of sires and this will also apply to the >>> introduction of new female genetics into the individual herd as = well. >>> This program is designed to not only apply objective assessment data=20= >>> to >>> both male and female selection criteria but to also show a way for >>> progressive breeders to position themselves for the future in terms=20= >>> of >>> breeding and selling advanced fibre genetics. >>> The following criteria suggestions are aimed at sire selections but=20= >>> can >>> apply equally to female selection protocols as well. >>> This program is about placing fibre as a higher priority than >>> conformation by objective measurement and the underpinning of >>> conformation correctness through strict adherence to a standard. >>> >>> The Program >>> >>> Because the influence of any sire is far greater across the national >>> herd than any individual female, it is important that sires be >>> rigorously examined for possible genetic conformational weaknesses.=20= >>> It >>> is important that these traits be identified as health and welfare >>> issues rather than cosmetic or environmental differences or effects. >>> There is currently no industry conformation standard in place to >>> measure sires (or females for that matter) against, nor is there any >>> prospect of being one in the foreseeable future. >>> The use of objectively collected and measured fleece data is not=20 >>> widely >>> used in the promotion of sires. >>> It is doubtful whether many breeders physically examine sires unless >>> they see them at a show or live close by. Many breeders send females >>> for mating to sight unseen sires and presumably rely upon a show=20 >>> result >>> as a tick of conformational approval. This is not necessarily a = sound >>> breeding practice. >>> >>> First requirement. >>> Each sire will be required to pass a physical conformational >>> examination as described on a pro-forma established for such a=20 >>> purpose. >>> This examination is identical to that adopted by the Australian=20 >>> Alpaca >>> Association (AAA) for registration of males as sires approved for >>> progeny registration into the International Alpaca Register, owned=20= >>> and >>> operated by the AAA. Under the AAA scheme, any male used to sire = cria >>> able to be registered must pass this test before the sire is used to >>> get a female pregnant. >>> Each component of the standard must be passed for the male to be >>> considered satisfactory - there are no trade-offs, an animal must=20 >>> pass >>> every requirement. >>> There is no fleece component. >>> The examination must be done by a veterinarian so that potentrial >>> customers can be assured that the certification has been done by an >>> independent and qualified person. >>> Second requirement. >>> Each sire will be required to be fleece tested using the OFDA2000 >>> testing technology. A fleece sample from each mid-side will be=20 >>> required >>> and the average of the two tests used as the final figure. >>> The sample will be collected by an independent person, divided in=20 >>> half >>> with one sample forwarded by the sampler to the program coordinator=20= >>> and >>> the other half retained by the owner under seal. >>> The information required by the program will include micron, = standard >>> deviation, coefficient of variation, comfort factor, staple length, >>> colour and average fibre profile. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Third requirement. >>> The fleece will be weighed at shearing by an independent person who >>> will record total fleece weight and saddle. The male will be = required >>> to be shorn from the ears down the neck, the body and legs down to=20= >>> the >>> knee, excluding the tail. >>> The weight will be recorded and affirmed by the owner. >>> The shorn fleece will be raised to a height of eighteen inches from = a >>> table top and dropped. This will be done three times and the weight=20= >>> of >>> the fleece recorded. This procedure will remove a considerable part=20= >>> of >>> any dust in the fleece. >>> >>> >>> Fourth requirement. >>> Breeders of coloured alpacas are becoming increasingly aware of the >>> phenotype expression of the genetics underlying what they see in the >>> flesh. There is an increasing sophistication being exhibited by >>> coloured breeders especially since the publication of Elizabeth=20 >>> Paul's >>> "The Alpaca Colour Key". In order to meet this demand and to foster >>> itys growth, each male will have any identifying colour spots=20 >>> disclosed >>> as well as eye colour, eyelid colour, points colour, toenail colour=20= >>> and >>> gum colour. These potential genetic colour identifiers will be >>> important to discerning colour breeders of the future. >>> >>> >>> Additional option. >>> This option will allow owners of sires to have their sire tested for >>> primary:secondary follicle count as well as a density count. Owners >>> will be provided with a kit comprising all the materials and=20 >>> equipment >>> needed to undertake the test and a comprehensive set of instructions >>> which will allow a competent person to do the collection without the >>> need for a veterinarian. It is suggested however that the vet could=20= >>> do >>> the biopsy at the time of the physical examination. This is a = one-off >>> procedure and is offered for those breeders who might want to=20 >>> identify >>> their top females within the herd. >>> >>> The information derived from the processing of the four requirements >>> will paint a composite picture of any sire using objectively=20 >>> collected >>> data. This data can then be used to make some initial assessments of >>> the sire, allow comparisons between sires and lets sires be assessed=20= >>> on >>> performance rather than subjective assessment reinforced by emotive >>> promotion. >>> The exercising of the additional option adds a far deeper dimension=20= >>> to >>> the selection process and strikes a very new line of breeder=20 >>> disclosure >>> to potential customers for sire services. This is very much leading >>> edge genetics. >>> >>> >>> Access to data >>> The data and documentation of each sire would then be collated and >>> processed into a website listing within a listing of "accredited=20 >>> sires" >>> (or some such identifier). This website would be managed and=20 >>> maintained >>> by Alpaca Consulting Services of Australia and would be open for=20 >>> public >>> access. >>> There would be a fee structure for animals entering the program and=20= >>> an >>> annual fee to cover the testing, collating and data processing of = the >>> annual shearing results. >>> Once entered into the site, the animal will remain until, either it >>> dies, the owner decides to withdraw or no new data has been = collected >>> for two seasons. >>> There will be a photograph of the sire on the site. >>> There will be no mention of show results. >>> There will be an option to link any particular sire to the owners >>> website or email address. >>> There will be no service fee or other advertising on the site. >>> >>> Benefits >>> The industry-wide benefit is access to sires demonstrating=20 >>> objectively >>> measured fleece and conformation information collected by an >>> independent person. This feature alone will place these sires at the >>> forefront of breeders minds as the collection, testing and=20 >>> distribution >>> of the information is not managed by the owner of the sire - a truly >>> vested interest - but by someone with absolutely no interest in any >>> animal. >>> By making the data public both breeders and sire owners have a >>> benchmark against which they can measure any potential sire but also=20= >>> a >>> wider range of sires as this program allows any sire, or potential >>> sire, in. >>> Over time, the fleece history of the sire will become clear with=20 >>> those >>> sires not blowing out in any measurable traits becoming more=20 >>> recognized >>> and thus, potentially, more attractive as future herd sires. >>> Owners of listed sires will no doubt be recognized as leading edge >>> breeders as demonstrated through their strength of conviction in >>> submitting their animals to scrutiny over the internet. >>> Breeders looking for sires will, for the first time perhaps, have a >>> broader range of sires from which to select as small breeders unable=20= >>> or >>> unwilling to exhibit at shows will have a vehicle through which they >>> can market and promote their animals at minimal cost and at maximum >>> credibility. >>> Finally, the conformation examination by a veterinarian will, for = the >>> first time, underpin an expanded guarantee of correctness of >>> conformation by a sire owner. >>> These are benefits that will not only enhance the reputation of the >>> animal but also the owner in an industry which will place more and=20= >>> more >>> emphasis on fleece production than is currently the case. >>> In essence, breeders offering sires entered into the program will be >>> attesting that their animals have met a documented conformation >>> standard, have undergone independently collected, tested and = recorded >>> fleece measurements and, if selected, are prepared to disclose >>> secondary to primary follicle ratios to buyers of both animals and >>> service options. >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production >>> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ >>> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) >>> >>> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20 >>> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of = the >>> email. >>> >>> --- >>> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production >>> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ >>> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) >>> >>> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to >>> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without = the >>> quotes) in the Subject line of the email. >>> >> >> --- >> List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production >> ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ >> List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) >> >> How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20 >> alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and >> put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the=20 >> email. > > > Ruthanne McCaslin, DVM > > Promised Land Farm > 11345 Thwing Rd. > Chardon, Ohio 44024 > 440-285-9255 > Peruvian Perfection in Black and White - and other exciting colors! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get rid of annoying pop-up ads with the new MSN Toolbar =96 FREE! > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ > > --- > List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production > ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ > List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) > > How to Unsubscribe: send an email to=20 > alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without the=20= > quotes) in the Subject line of the email. > --- List Name: Alpaca Fibre Production ListAddress: alpaca_fibre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx List Archives: //www.freelists.org/archives/alpaca_fibre/ List Administrator: Ian Watt (alpacaconsult@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) How to Unsubscribe: send an email to alpaca_fibre-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx and put "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the Subject line of the email.