[access-uk] Re: Accessible or not accessible? (Was: Really good, accessible web sites.)

  • From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 23:23:37 +0100

Steve,

        Window Eyes apparently has the edge over Jaws with Flash links, but
I'd suggest that the phrase "uk/main_uk.htm" is only easy to interpret if
you're familiar with links and possibly know a little about the Internet.

        If the person using the web site not only has a visual impairment,
but is also cognitively impaired, maybe with learning difficulties, how
accessible do you think they would find those link phrases?

        We are assuming too that the user has a recent Flash capable screen
reader, many people don't have that technology to hand.

        It can be argued that people should stay up to date with the latest
technology, but I don't see that as being a good enough reason to prevent
someone from accessing some information.

        You have a quick mind, an extensive knowledge of your technology,
and the ability to stay on top of recent versions of your software, but you
are not representative of the average Internet user, whether VI or not.


        The guy who kicked off the WWW, Tim Berners-Lee, put it best:

        "The power of the web is in its universality. Access by everyone,
regardless of disability."

http://www.w3.org/WAI/

        You may say that because you can access those links, whilst another
may not be able to because of their different disability or technology, then
accessibility is therefore subjective. I don't see it that way. If something
isn't accessible to everyone, it simply isn't accessible.

        We may be a long way from perfect, but believe me, we are trying.

        How on earth did the Belgians get a double look in on the Habitat
page though? *Grin.

Tink. 
 


 


 






 

-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Steve Nutt
Sent: 02 September 2005 12:29
To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Accessible or not accessible? (Was: Really good,
accessible web sites.)

Hi Tink,

OK, I am not sure what you couldn't access here in the way of information.
I appreciate what George said about the pictures etc, but not being my kind
of web site, I am wondering what you are looking for.

But let's take the example of the countries.  This is where JAWS falls down
badly with Flash.  JAWS is no good at reading links in Flash, unless they
are labeled in a certain way.  Here is how Window-Eyes presented the
countries to me:-

uk/main_uk.htm
france/main_france.htm
germany/main_germany.htm
spain/main_spain.htm
belgium.htm
greece.htm
iceland.htm
belgium.htm
portugal.htm
thailand.htm
eire.htm

I noticed that Belgium is on there twice, but apart from that, what is wrong
with that?  The only thing that is wrong is that the links are not labelled.
Now I haven't tried this with JAWS yet to be honest, but I have noticed that
it doesn't read flash links particularly well on some web sites, but the
names of the HTM files make it obvious in this case.

In my very quick look at the web site, I could also search for products, but
I didn't know what to search for.  What I didn't try to do, was to browse a
catalogue or anything like that.

So is this web site inacessible?  I would say no, just difficult to use.
But some would probably disagree with me, but hey, that's OK <Smile>.

Keep 'em coming Tink, that was a goodly one.

All the best
--
Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk 
        
-----Original Message-----
From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Tink Watson
Sent: 02 September 2005 10:56
To: Access UK
Subject: [access-uk] Accessible or not accessible? (Was: Really good,
accessible web sites.)


----- Original     Hmm, now this will be interesting. One of my favourite
awkward web sites at the moment is Habitat's:
http://www.habitat.co.uk/

    I can navigate around the site, but I haven't been able to glean much
sensible information out of it... of course it is entirely Flash based, so
may be a slightly unfair entry...

    Primary difficulties are the links to each country on the home page. 
Only the path is read, but if you spot the country names at the end of each,
you have a fighting chance of an educated guess.

    The links within the Flash are not identified by Jaws as being links,
but again if you have some previous experience of Flash, then a potted
attemt at selecting a likely link does the trick.

    Music plays briefly after each link is selected, which put listening to
Jaws on hold for a few moments, aggrevating more than anything.

    I didn't spend long trundling around this site, but within five or six
clicks I hadn't found any actual content information, so gave up.

    Fully expecting to be put to rights on this though. *Grin.

Tink.
From: "kevin and emma" <kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 11:00 PM
Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.


> hi all, i think some of the problems we come across with websites is 
> due to confusion about what is considered *accessible* and what isn't.
> by this i mean, a line needs to be drawn when we criticise websites 
> between, what is
> *inaccessible* and what's simply *difficult* to use. just because a 
> website is a little difficult to use, does that make it inaccessible?
> personally i'd say no it doesn't. but there will be a lot of people 
> out there who say it does. also, i wonder sometimes just how much time 
> folks spend on a website before declaring it inaccessible. and my 
> final thought for now, what exactly do we all mean by inaccessible?
> how about folks provide examples of websites they consider 
> inaccessible? this'll give us all an idea of what exactly we're 
> getting at! there's a lot of people on this list all with varying 
> abilities, so that should provide some interesting results.
> Kevin - co-owner/moderator of the blind gamers discussion list contact 
> me via email/msn:
> kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Catherine Turner" <catherineturner2000@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 3:20 PM
> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>
>
>> Steve I think you over-simplify the issues.
>>
>> Re people's competence levels, non-VI people have a variety of levels 
>> of incompetence too.  They, too, complain about not being able to use
> software,
>> websites, whatever.  Obviously in an ideal world everyone would be 
>> perfect at using their screen readers, but that's not going to 
>> happen.  Everyone here knows the problems there are about cost of 
>> training etc.  Plus, let's be honest, the amount of effort a VI 
>> person has to put in with their
> screen
>> reader to get information out is considerably more than a non-VI does 
>> with
> a
>> mouse and their eyes.  I know it's like this for VI people and a 
>> whole
> range
>> of tasks/issues, but at the same time I say it's perfectly reasonable 
>> to expect designers to design for accessibility by following 
>> guidelines and building on their knowledge/experience of these 
>> issues, which will help
> that
>> gap to be minimised.
>>
>> Re the percentage of accessible sites.  Well various studies have 
>> been
> done.
>> I don't know the ins and outs of all of them, and I expect if I 
>> looked
> into
>> it I would find some faults with them as I would with studies of all
> types.
>> I do know, however, that the study conducted for the DRC by City
> University
>> was done by people with considerable knowledge of 
>> accessibility/usability and related issues; used a representative 
>> sample of testers in terms of
> age,
>> experience, technology used etc; and looked at a massive variety of
> websites
>> from different sectors.  That study found 81% of sites tested lacked 
>> evidence of any attempt to make their site accessible.  I don't want 
>> to
> get
>> into trading figures or criticising individual studies, I don't like 
>> to do so unless I research the subject properly and I don't have the 
>> time right now; but we must remember that we here are individual 
>> users (most of us pretty experienced); we probably tend to look at 
>> certain websites or
> certain
>> types of websites time and time again; studies like the one done by 
>> City
> for
>> the DRC take into account and  properly measure/investigate the 
>> experience of users, not Steve or Catherine or whoever.
>>
>> Re people who "won't" upgrade I'm sure we all know that there are 
>> issues
> of
>> affordability here.  Most VIs are unemployed, and we know the cost of
> access
>> technology is high.  Also, designers should and often do take into 
>> account how their page will render on different platforms/browser 
>> versions; they draw a line somewhere in terms of browser versions 
>> they will design for;
> and
>> I think they should do the same for access technology.
>>
>> Catherine
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
>> > Behalf Of Steve Nutt
>> > Sent: 01 September 2005 11:54
>> > To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Tink,
>> >
>> > Trouble is, there are people with influence saying these sites are 
>> > inaccessible, due to their lack of competence, so other people 
>> > believe them.
>> >
>> > All the best
>> > --
>> > Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
>> > Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
>> > mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
>> > Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
>> > Behalf Of Tink Watson
>> > Sent: 01 September 2005 10:25
>> > To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>> >
>> > Kevin,
>> >
>> >     I think you're absolutely right when you say that sites are not
> always
>> > as inaccessible as people believe them to be, but that leads to the 
>> > supposition that it isn't the accessibility of the web site that is 
>> > subjective, but the degree of competence displayed by the user that is.
>> >
>> > Tink.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "kevin and emma" <kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:12 AM
>> > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>> >
>> >
>> > > hi steve, agreed totally! i get fed up with people screaming 
>> > > about inaccessible websites, and blaming the company whose site 
>> > > it is. has
> it
>> > > not
>> > > ever occurred to someone, "hang on, maybe i'm the problem
>> > here?" not only
>> > > do
>> > > different screen readers perform differently with the same sites, 
>> > > but different versions of the same SR do. it's just too easy to
>> > blame someone
>> > > else for a website you struggle with instead of admitting that
>> > maybe your
>> > > not using your access technology to the best of it's ability.
>> > and no i'm
>> > > not
>> > > saying all websites are accessible, i just don't think there's as 
>> > > many
>> > > *inaccessible* sites as people seem to claim. buyt this is all
>> > subjective
>> > > and down to personal opinion, which is why i don't think the
>> > whole website
>> > > accessibility thing will ever be nailed down.
>> > > Kevin - co-owner/moderator of the blind gamers discussion list 
>> > > contact me via email/msn:
>> > > kream@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > To: <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:07 PM
>> > > Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> Hi Tink,
>> > >>
>> > >> I think I am going to disagree with you, accessibility is
>> > subjective.  If
>> > >> you try a web site with one screen reader, and it isn't
>> > accessible, does
>> > >> that make it inaccessible?  Only for that person using that 
>> > >> screen reader.
>> > >> If you then find another screen reader renders it perfectly
>> > accessible to
>> > >> that same user, after training, for example, does that
>> > suddenly make that
>> > >> web site accessible?  Accessibility is as subjective as 
>> > >> usability in
> my
>> > >> view.
>> > >>
>> > >> All the best
>> > >> --
>> > >> Computer Room Services:  the long cane for blind computer users.
>> > >> Telephone Voice:  +44(0)1438 742286, Fax/BBS:  +44(0)1438 759589
>> > >> mobile:  +44(0)7956 334938,
>> > >> Email:  Steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> Web site:  http://www.comproom.co.uk
>> > >>
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> > On Behalf
>> > > Of
>> > >> Tink Watson
>> > >> Sent: 31 August 2005 20:11
>> > >> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>> > >>
>> > >> DJ,
>> > >>
>> > >> Good question. I'll measure each site against the Web Content 
>> > >> Accessibility Guidelines from the W3C, but will also take into
> account
>> > >> how
>> > >> each site feels to use in practical terms.
>> > >>
>> > >> I should stress that I won't be writing the piece for In Touch, 
>> > >> but am just conducting some investigations for one of their team
>> > for a piece
>> > >> ther hoping to do later this Autumn. I'll recommend that care
>> > is taken to
>> > >> keep everything in perspective, but I know they are an
>> > experienced team.
>> > > The
>> > >> In Touch team member I'm working for is also visually
>> > impaired, so again
>> > >> there is good knowledge there.
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm going to disagree with the suggestion that accessibility is 
>> > >> subjective though. *Smile.
>> > >>
>> > >> Ensuring that everyone has access to something is objective, the 
>> > >> subjective part is it's usability.
>> > >>
>> > >> It's a question of where the responsibility lies. I believe that 
>> > >> it is the responsibility of the site owner to ensure that it is 
>> > >> as accessible and usable as possible. It is the responsibility 
>> > >> of the user to
> ensure
>> > > they
>> > >> have the right skills and technology to use it.
>> > >>
>> > >> I don't want to wade into discussions about the availability and 
>> > >> cost of assisstive technology, that's not what I'm meaning.
>> > I'm thinking
>> > >> more along the lines of motorways only being accessible if you
>> > have a car
>> > >> and you are licenced to drive it.
>> > >>
>> > >> Accessibility is about making sure someone, anyone, can access 
>> > >> information. Usability is about how easy that information is to
> access
>> > >> and
>> > >> that's where it becomes truly subjective. It's one of the 
>> > >> reasons why
>> > > there
>> > >> is so little in the way of guidelines for usability, although 
>> > >> the
> WCAG
>> > >> metnioned above do sway a little in that direction as you near 
>> > >> the
>> > > Priority
>> > >> 3 level checkpoints.
>> > >>
>> > >> The end goal of what I'm doing now, is to produce some 
>> > >> information about sites that have special offers online, but not 
>> > >> available over
> the
>> > >> phone or in person, Sites that are accessible and easy to use,
>> > Companies
>> > >> that make special offers or discounts to people with 
>> > >> disabilities, in fact anything that focuses on the whole area of 
>> > >> disability, web sites, iscounts and so forth.
>> > >>
>> > >> Tink.
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> > On Behalf
>> > > Of
>> > >> Dj Paddy
>> > >> Sent: 31 August 2005 15:07
>> > >> To: access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > >> Subject: [access-uk] Re: Really good, accessible web sites.
>> > >>
>> > >> Hi Tink.
>> > >>
>> > >> How will you determine what is a, "Accessible", web site?
>> > >>
>> > >> I am not wanting to be argumentative here.  smiles
>> > >>
>> > >> Will you refer to W3C?
>> > >>
>> > >> I hope that in any conclusion and/or opening it is stressed 
>> > >> that, "Accessible", is still a subjective term.  And that lack 
>> > >> of
>> > knowledge, (I
>> > >> don't personally believe training is always the answer ,
>> > although this is
>> > >> something that can help but I don't believe it's called for as 
>> > >> much
> as
>> > > it's
>> > >> suggested)  Bottom line in tech support mainstream or otherwise 
>> > >> the
> end
>> > > user
>> > >> is allot more at fault than the site in this case.  Often due
>> > to them not
>> > >> having the skills for whatever reason to use their
> adaptive/mainstream
>> > >> and
>> > >> general operating system to it' sfull capacity to gain access.
>> > >>
>> > >> OK, now I've made those big sweeping remarks I should include
>> > a website
>> > >> or
>> > >> few I suppose?
>> > >>
>> > >> Although I don't think there's many sites that are
>> > inaccessible in their
>> > >> entirety.
>> > >>
>> > >> N'ways why not include
>> > >>
>> > >> www.thinkgeek.com
>> > >>
>> > >> www.paypal.co.uk
>> > >>
>> > >> www.google.com (.co.uk)
>> > >>
>> > >> My hosting company
>> > >>
>> > >> www.dhosting.co.uk
>> > >>
>> > >> The guys even got keyboard shortcuts on there.
>> > >>
>> > >> www.ebay.co.uk
>> > >>
>> > >> Who actually have buttons you can hit on to have standard web 
>> > >> forms
> on
>> > >> instead of Java.  But who have no audio authentication system in
> place
>> > >> but
>> > >> paypal that they push and partner with do?
>> > >>
>> > >> Anyways it's a place I spent a small fortune on over the past 
>> > >> few
> weeks
>> > > and
>> > >> was quite miffed that I had to get a mate to change my email
>> > address for
>> > > me
>> > >> because of the graphical auth system.
>> > >>
>> > >> I could go on....
>> > >>
>> > >> You may wish to look at the links on Tom's site
>> > whitestick.co.uk and even
>> > >> the favourites page on jfwlite as well.
>> > >>
>> > >> Dj Paddy
>> > >> "It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the 
>> > >> beans
> of
>> > > Java
>> > >> that thoughts acquire speed, The hands acquire shaking, the 
>> > >> shaking
>> > > becomes
>> > >> a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
>> > >> -- Popular Usenet Sig
>> > >> ----- Original Message -----
>> > >> From: "Tink Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> To: "Access UK" <access-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>; "Vi Gen Access"
>> > >> <vi-genaccess@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> > >> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 2:00 PM
>> > >> Subject: [access-uk] Really good, accessible web sites.
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> > Good afternoon,
>> > >> >
>> > >> >    Continuing with my research on behalf of Radio 4's In Touch 
>> > >> > program, I'm hoping you can help with recommendations for 
>> > >> > really
> good
>> > >> > accessible web sites.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >    I know that a perfectly accessible and usable web site is 
>> > >> > still something of a rarity, but certainly in my own 
>> > >> > experience, there
> are
>> > >> > shops
>> > >>
>> > >> > online where I can carry out my shopping without too much grief.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >    If anyone can recommend a web site from the following 
>> > >> > categories that is easy to use, that would be great:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Travel
>> > >> > CD's etc
>> > >> > Food Supermarkets
>> > >> > Finance,Insurance
>> > >> > Entertainment
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >    The idea is to praise those companies who appear to be 
>> > >> > making an effort
>> > >>
>> > >> > or who have taken steps in the right direction.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >    Please reply off list to tink@xxxxxxxxxx or on list if you 
>> > >> > feel others would benefit from sharing your recommendations.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Thanks,
>> > >> > Tink.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > http://www.tink.co.uk/
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** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq


** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe]
** If this link doesn't work then send a message to:
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
** and in the Subject line type
** unsubscribe
** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the
** immediately-following link:-
** [mailto:access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq]
** or send a message, to
** access-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq

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