[C] [Wittrs] Digest Number 70

  • From: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • To: WittrsAMR@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: 11 Dec 2009 11:20:56 -0000

Title: WittrsAMR

Messages In This Digest (10 Messages)

Messages

1a.

Re: [Wittrs]Wittgenstein on Religious Belief

Posted by: "void" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:50 am (PST)




>
> "5.631
> The thinking, presenting subject; there is no such thing.
>
> If I wrote a book "The world as I found it", I should also have therein to report on my body and say which members obey my will and which do not, etc. This then would be a method of isolating the subject or rather of showing that in an important sense there is no subject: that is to say, of it alone in this book mention could not be made."
>
>
> Perhaps I misunderstand "Purusha" in Samkhya philosophy. That's not unlikely.
>
>
> JPDeMouy
>
>
>
> > Wittgenstein philosophy may be compared to Sankhya darsana
> > of India.It is one of six darsanas (Vision)
> > Founder of Sankhya philosophy is KAPILA
> > They bring in everything to alphabets and digits.Mental
> > world generated from a symbol and ends in symbol.All
> > commentaries are basically verbal in nature.
>
> Dear sir

This is to bring your kind attention that word requires either a verbal reference or a reference of an image or something for its reference.Vedas stand as a reference for all Indian Darsanas.
(Neti) means not this, not this.This process implied even in modern science.
Purusha means a sign which indicates verb form in Sanskrit language.
So no sign is independent so this process is responsible for Duality in thought,idea,question - answer and so on.
If we say language is a media so also humans.
Vedas were interpreted in three ways 1 Duality 2 Non-duality 3 semi non-duality according to the religions expounded.
Globally you may find philosophy related to some religion or the other.That is how people search for the unknown as an end.
Story has got a beginning and an end, so also a game,so also political vanity.As long as people see the object within this field of activity is not called as vision but carrying the load of past to the present.
That is what is called super imposed ideology.
To see seeing is called wisdom which any philosophy should aim.

thank you sir
sekhar
>
>
>
> ==========================================
>
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>

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2a.

Re: The Stuart-Bruce Debate

Posted by: "J DeMouy" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:36 am (PST)



I am reluctant to engage in this discussion at all for reasons most diplomatically expressed as a wish not to unnecessarily test my own patience, but I think I'd be remiss not to at least offer this hint to the two of you:

When considering whether a difference in speaking involves a commitment to the existence of additional entities (forces, substances, et al) in one of those ways of speaking unless one can effect a perfect translation or derivation from one way of speaking to the other, it may be helpful to consider a case similar in some respects but different in others.

The philosophy og chemistry provides such a case. Unlike the transition from chemistry to biochemistry to biology (where people have been inclined to posit some additional "vital force"), the transition from physiology and neurology to psychology (where people have been inclined to posit an additional "mental substance"), or the transition from the natural sciences to the social sciences (where people have been inclined to dismiss the scientific legitimacy of the social sciences altogether), the transition from physics to chemistry involves no such inclinations (at least since "caloric" and "phlogiston" were rejected).

And yet, "reduction" is far more elusive than has been (until recently) simply taken for granted!

A good introduction to some of the issues in this fairly new field:

http://www.chem.ucla.edu/dept/Faculty/scerri/pdf/poc_=JCE_article.pdf

JPDeMouy

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3a.

criticizing Wittgenstein

Posted by: "J DeMouy" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:47 am (PST)



Sean,

> One wants to say: you cannot criticize Wittgentein before
> communion.           

I would say: criticize what you will.  But don't be surprised if these criticisms miss their mark.

I'd even maintain that my own understanding of Wittgenstein has benefited - in my earliest encounters with the work and to this day - from a certain critical mindset. One might say that this is a matter of temperament or "learning styles". Perhaps.

CJ has mentioned the careful, line by line reading that I would imagine any serious Wittgensteinian should find familiar. Looking to see how these remarks can be applied in one's own life is certainly a valuable activity as well.

I've also found it valuable to read with one or more partners (and I've been fortunate in having romantic partners who were thoughtful and intelligent as well as curious and patient enough to indulge me in this, but academic settings also provide opportunities), sometimes assuming the roles of different interlocutors in the text, trying to develop a better understanding of what motivates each "voice".

(It's interesting, particularly with _Philosophical_Investigations_ that often the "flow" of the text would be anticipated - without deliberate planning on our part - by the flow of our own discussions.)

I'd even be inclined to say that a proper understanding of the work demands that it be read critically, due to its dialectical nature. Only be getting "inside" all of the "voices" does one appreciate the point in what is being said. And since the voices are clearly not all in agreement...

JPDeMouy

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3b.

Re: criticizing Wittgenstein

Posted by: "J DeMouy" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 10, 2009 3:02 pm (PST)



Sean,

I find the use of comparisons of Wittgenstein with "God", talk of "higher" and "lower" planes and of giants and "Lilliputians", and similar metaphors to be counterproductive. (I do not say "incorrect"!) It is (unnecessarily?) contentious and potentially invidious to put things in these terms, amking them quite unhelpful in the present context and potentially even harmful in the wider discussion.

I'm not (obviously) not above saying contentious and even invidious things (quite gratuitously sometimes!) but I wonder if your points could be salvaged from these problems?

Why am I bothering if I don't think what you're saying is actually incorrect?

That Wittgensteinians pass off hagiography as genuine scholarship or that we are a cult of blind hero-worship with no relevance to the mainstream of philosophy are common enough accusations. And of course, people who say that sort of thing are liable to do so whatever we do. But why make it easy for them?

And why say things that would seem to the curious onlooker to confirm that propaganda?

What follows is a statement of my own take on these matters, where my views seem to mesh with your own. If they do not, I welcome clarification.

There are more and less serious ways of appreciating paintings. And by "serious", I do not mean to suggest that the appreciation of a dilettante is any less sincere, any less genuine. But for someone who has immersed herself in an epoch, assimilated its systems of representation, its norms of _expression_, its design sensibilities, its precedents, its paradigms, a painter's work is a record of a way of seeing, of deliberate decisions, of problems and solutions. She can recognize better and worse specimens of works belonging to the style. She can identify innovative and banal solutions to the problems of representation and design belonging to such works. And she can recognize mistakes.

But this sort of insight does not always translate into a similar appreciation of work from another period. In fact, where her dilettante friend may readily find beauty in Rubens as well as Raphael, she may see only excess, ugliness, thoughtlessness, and chaos in Rubens.

She could learn as well to see Baroque paintings as they should be seen. Or perhaps to "switch off" her finely cultivated judgment where it does not apply, so that she can at least enjoy Rubens as her less erudite friend does.

But what about Cezanne? There is a reason that he is often called "the painter's painter" (as Wittgenstein is "the philosopher's philosopher"). Cezanne's work doesn't fit into previously existing conceptions of painting, not even Impressionism. Cezanne seems to be struggling with something more fundamental than a style and its problems, something like, "What is this business of applying colored material to a two-dimensional substrate to 'represent' reality?" And he doesn't reject the idea, as many later painters would do, but he struggles with it in various ways. And it requires the same questioning from us to understand what he's doing, why he breaks so many "rules".

Understanding Cezanne requires understanding his problems. And this starts from understanding - or perhaps taking on trust - that his "mistakes" are no such thing.

Or rather: it is difficult to imagine, once we know not to try to judge him according to the prevailing style of a period, what we should count as a "mistake".

This is not to say that Cezanne is "higher" than us or "higher" than Rubens or Raphael. Only that seriousness requires we show care in what assumptions and expectations we bring to each.

Now, philosophy is not painting. Nor yet music. Such analogies can be easily strained past the point of breaking. But something like this captures some of the difficulty with which Wittgenstein's works present us.

JPDeMouy

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3c.

Re: criticizing Wittgenstein

Posted by: "void" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:39 pm (PST)




>
> Now, philosophy is not painting. Nor yet music. Such analogies can be easily strained past the point of breaking. But something like this captures some of the difficulty with which Wittgenstein's works present us.
>
> JPDeMouy
>
> Sekhar

Story as mind,song as consciousness,Drama as a picture people are discussing.It is the duty of philosophy to show clearly what is what but not just accepting or denying without verification.
Again question arises verify with what?
Ones own accumulated knowledge is limited by all means. Further knowledge is partial,indirect.This should be basic understanding before investigating any logical interface.
I a single sign stands as a representative of ones own accumulated world.It blocks seeing things as they are since emotions and commotions loaded within this I.
There can not be a true communion as long as this I is active.It is a fact that this I is enclosed within its time frame.Pros and cons depends on time and space.
Problem is with no knowledge humans are animals,but with limited knowledge people are egoistic hence become decisive makers which again is within the field of language game.

thank you sir
sekhar
>
>
>
> ==========================================
>
> Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/
>

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4.

wrong author's name

Posted by: "CJ" wittrsamr@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:52 am (PST)




Sorry, but Obama must be infecting my mind, the name of the author is Auyang.....Foundations of Complex Systems...here's a blurb from a Amazon on the boo
Complex behavior can occur in any system made up of large numbers of interacting constituents, be they atoms in a solid, cells in a living organism, or consumers in a national economy. Analysis of this behavior often involves making important assumptions and approximations, the exact nature of which vary from subject to subject. Foundations of Complex-system Theories begins with a description of the general features of complexity and then examines a range of important concepts, such as theories of composite systems, collective phenomena, emergent properties, and stochastic processes. Each topic is discussed with reference to the fields of statistical physics, evolutionary biology, and economics, thereby highlighting recurrent themes in the study of complex systems. This detailed yet nontechnical book will appeal to anyone who wants to know more about complex systems and their behavior. It will also be of great interest to specialists studying complexity in the physical, biological, and social sciences.
5.

A picture is worth thousand words

Posted by: "void" rgoteti@xxxxxxxxx   rgoteti

Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:36 pm (PST)



The theory that sentences are essentially pictorial, which is the other main claim made in the Tractatus, was designed to make good a deficiency in Russell's semantics. Russell had tried to explain our understanding of senses of sentences by appealing to our acquaintance with the things they pick out, rather than by sharing a world view for categorizing things. In other words, you didn't need to share a way of assigning relevance to things first, before being able to understand what a sentence was about; you only needed to know the things it referred to.

The Picture Theory, on the other hand, starts from the way in which an array of coloured points on a surface e.g. land and sea on the surface of the earth, can be mapped onto a piece of paper and the message can be immediately understood. It is true that in this case the immediate intelligibility is partly the result of the fact that you can recognise a certain physical correspondence between the two things e.g. colour. But the immediacy of understanding is striking. On a simplistic level, in Tractatus, Wittgenstein essentially compares the function of language to that of a map. Once the correlation of names with objects has been grasped, there is the same immediate intelligibility of any new sentence in which the names have been put together in a way that reflects the possibilities open to the named objects.

This brings us to the central point of his theory: anything we can say in words or pictures will depend on other things that cannot be said, only shown and cannot as such be "proved", so much as exemplified. Wittgenstein's later work would pick up this idea and raise it to a profound level, solving the largely unresolved problem of how name and object "attach". The essential nature of language and its atomic foundations are dealt with early on in the Tractatus, and from this, Wittgenstein goes on to do a philosophically daring thing by attempting to fix the limits of language.

Read more at Suite101: Explaining Wittgenstein (contd.): The Tractatus | Suite101.com http://metaphysics.suite101.com/article.cfm/explaining_wittgenstein_contd#ixzz0ZM6m03Tb

6.

Philosophy in essence

Posted by: "void" rgoteti@xxxxxxxxx   rgoteti

Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:42 pm (PST)



Philosophical questioning is essentially an _expression_ of the desire for clarity. Clarity doesn't require years of academic training. The test is: does what is proposed answer each 'why' in as full a way as possible? It seems wrong to limit beforehand what philosophy may or may not prove, for this cannot be known in advance. If philosophy were used simply as a tool of linguistic analysis, as Wittgenstein suggests, not only could it not be useful, it seems it could not even be true, as truth calls for a judgment, not just a description. But philosophy seems to be more than that. Deep in the primitive experience of humanity, philosophy begins with a desire for truth. Where it will end is uncertain, but its pursuit says something profound about what it means to be a human being.

Read more at Suite101: What is Philosophy?: The Activity, Purpose and Origin of Metaphysics | Suite101.com http://philosophy.suite101.com/article.cfm/what_is_philosophy#ixzz0ZM8JlbhV

7.

Truth function

Posted by: "void" rgoteti@xxxxxxxxx   rgoteti

Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:00 pm (PST)



rom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
'Truth functional' redirects here. For the truth functional conditional, see Material conditional.
In mathematical logic, a truth function is a function from a set of truth values to truth-values. Classically the domain and range of a truth function are {truth,falsehood}, but they may have any number of truth-values, including an infinity of them.
A sentence is truth-functional if the truth-value of the sentence is a function of the truth-value of its subsentences. A class of sentences is truth-functional if each of its members is. For example, the sentence "Apples are fruits and carrots are vegetables" is truth-functional since it is true just in case each of its subsentences "apples are fruits" and "carrots are vegetables" is true, and it is false otherwise. Not all sentences of a natural language, such as English, are truth-functional.
Sentences of the form "x believes that..." are typical examples of sentences that are not truth-functional. Let us say that Mary mistakenly believes that Al Gore was President of the USA on April 20, 2000, but she does not believe that the moon is made of green cheese. Then the sentence
"Mary believes that Al Gore was President of the USA on April 20, 2000"
is true while
"Mary believes that the moon is made of green cheese"
is false. In both cases, each component sentence (i.e. "Al Gore was president of the USA on April 20, 2000" and "the moon is made of green cheese") is false, but each compound sentence formed by prefixing the phrase "Mary believes that" differs in truth-value. That is, the truth-value of a sentence of the form "Mary believes that..." is not determined solely by the truth-value of its component sentence, and hence the (unary) connective (or simply operator since it is unary) is non-truth-functional.
In classical logic, the class of its formulas (including sentences) is truth-functional since every sentential connective (e.g. &, →, etc.) used in the construction of formulas is truth-functional. Their values for various truth-values as argument are usually given by truth tables. Truth-functional propositional calculus is a formal system whose formulas may be interpreted as either true or false.

8.

Propositions

Posted by: "void" rgoteti@xxxxxxxxx   rgoteti

Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:28 pm (PST)



Most of the propositions and questions of philosophers arise from our failure to understand the logic of our language. (They belong to the same class as the question whether the good is more or less identical than the beautiful.) And it is not surprising that the deepest problems are in fact not problems at all.
Philosophers, then, have the task of presenting the logic of our language clearly. This will not solve important problems but it will show that some things that we take to be important problems are really not problems at all. The gain is not wisdom but an absence of confusion. This is not a rejection of philosophy or logic. Wittgenstein took philosophical puzzlement very seriously indeed, but he thought that it needed dissolving by analysis rather than solving by the production of theories. The Tractatus presents itself as a key for untying a series of knots both profound and highly technical.

Internet encyclopedia of philosophy
Ludwig wittgenstein

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