[THIN] Re: Matrix for Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows 2003's Terminal Services (RDP)
- From: "Brian Madden" <brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:51:25 -0400
To quote Claudio: "...with TS 2003, SP1 loaded (to add SSL) and..."
...so you can confirm (from your perspective of course) that "real" SSL
support is part of SP1 for 2003? :-) Any more nuggets on this?
Brian
Brian Madden
+1 202.302.3657
brian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Cláudio Rodrigues
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 10:23 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Matrix for Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows 2003's
Terminal Services (RDP)
Answers inline...
Cláudio Rodrigues
Microsoft MVP
Windows Technologies - Terminal Server
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Ron Oglesby
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 9:28 AM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Matrix for Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows 2003's
Terminal Services (RDP)
Claudio makes some good points but I really have to hit a few things.
Now Citrix and I have had our wars but I really need to talk to these points
a little because I think, while minor, are still important:
[Quoted]
Althoug MetaFrame has its bells and whistles, you need to remember one
thing: Terminal Services is the car. MetaFrame is the premium package.
If you do need the extra features like Published apps, Intelligent Load
Balancing, Gateway support, SecurID integration and so on, MetaFrame may be
the way to go.
[Ron] very true. But it is more than that right... I mean if you have seen a
TS only environment above about 20 or 30 servers it begins to get ugly...
Not that it can't be done right but the need to extra tools from different
vendors comes into play etc etc.. now you have 4 different types of software
just to manage or run the env. Etc..
==> Sure it is. The key thing is among any 10000 companies, how many have 20
or more TS boxes? Not many. I do agree if you have such a large environment
(20 servers usually we are talking about 1000+ concurrent
sessions) Citrix shines. But for 100 concurrent users (usually this means 2,
3 servers) is Citrix really needed? IMHO, in 90% of the cases for 2, 3
servers, no.
[Quoted]
Keep in mind for example, New Moon's Canaveral IQ 2.0 when on top of 2003,
will give you pretty much everything Citrix does.
At a much lower price.
[Ron] Well they are much lower and give you the basic functionality if you
are only using the basic functions. This means they give you some seamless
apps, and a better interface for the end users and a little better mgmt and
load balancing BUT they still lack the security that even my smaller
environments are using/demanding (CSG) ==> Here I do not agree. They are
100% redundant. Their UPD puts Citrix UPD to a shame. Better integration to
AD (Citrix you could not publish apps to OUs for example). Security in most
cases, 128-bit encryption on RDP plus a product like my WTSGateway, will
give you a single gateway to access as many TSs as you have, with the
gateway being the only machine accessing the TSs. So basically New Moon with
TS 2003, SP1 loaded (to add SSL) and my WTSGateway you will have pretty much
the same as Citrix
+ CSG. Again at a 50% lower price tag. Note again, Citrix still has its
own bells and whistles and shines in some cases. My point is for the average
company, from 2-8 servers, usually Citrix is overkill. Other solutions as
mentioned will give end-users the same functionality, security and for
admins, maybe a faster and easier interface to manage everything.
[quoted]
I would say 90% of the companies do not need all the features Citrix has
and/or are not using them. Also many small/medium companies (another huge
market) simply does not go for Citrix thanks to its huge price tag.
[ron]
This is true to an extent but check out iforum and you will see that there
are a 1000 people there with 4-10 server environments in medium size
businesses. As far as the TS customers staying with TS only because of
price.... That is until this last few weeks where our smaller customers have
been calling about needing Citrix and the CSG because their remote/home
dial-in and VPN users infected their network with Blaster et al Now they are
talking Citrix and CSG to keep those users from becoming nodes on the
network. I am a firm believer that the CSG can be done to be more secure and
less of a network risk than a VPN.
==> Most of my clients do not have VPN access to TS servers. None of them
got hit by these viruses. And even with many having the TSs NATted directly
from the Internet, no one ever hacked them. IMHO there is too much concern
about TS security. No one was able to point me one customer that had a TS
hacked through ICA/RDP. This in 11 years, since I started working with OS/2
WinView. Some products like SecureRDP (that works with ICA also) will filter
the connetion to the TS before you can see the logon screen. This by IP/MAC
address/Client Version/Computer Name and so on. This not even Citrix does.
The point here is not all environments will need the overkill, redundant
security like RDP (encrypted) over VPN (encrypted) or ICA (encrypted) over
SSL. Sometimes the simple way is still the best way to do it. :-)
[quoted]
Even my product, WTSPortal will give you Published Apps and Seamless
Windows. :-) [ron] cool
==> Resuming: Citrix is a great product. Period. But there are other options
to any environment where Citrix is viable. The good consultant will
completely understand the environment in question and based on that, suggest
the right product, with no ties to company A or B. For example I just
finished a 500 user deployment where I had no other option than Citrix.
Given the features/requirements/environment Citrix was the best option.
But I also finished other projects with pure TS 2003, TS 2000 with New Moon
and TS 2003 with my own products.
Again, I do recommend people to read a lot more than they do and try not to
think only about the first big name you hear. Compare. Get demos if
possible. Setup a lab. Compare the products. Get the best bang for your
money.
See ya!
Ron Oglesby
Senior Technical Architect
RapidApp
Office 312.372.7188
Mobile 815.325.7618
email roglesby@xxxxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: Cláudio Rodrigues [mailto:Claudio.Rodrigues@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 11:34 PM
To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [THIN] Re: Matrix for Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows 2003's
Terminal Services (RDP)
Althoug MetaFrame has its bells and whistles, you need to remember one
thing: Terminal Services is the car. MetaFrame is the premium package.
If you do need the extra features like Published apps, Intelligent Load
Balancing, Gateway support, SecurID integration and so on, MetaFrame may be
the way to go. Keep in mind for example, New Moon's Canaveral IQ 2.0 when on
top of 2003, will give you pretty much everything Citrix does.
At a much lower price. I would say 90% of the companies do not need all the
features Citrix has and/or are not using them. Also many small/medium
companies (another huge market) simply does not go for Citrix thanks to its
huge price tag.
Even my product, WTSPortal will give you Published Apps and Seamless
Windows. :-) So the key thing here to decide which product is the way to go
in your case is which features you need or you are looking for.
The matrix I saw lists simply protocol comparisons, client support and minor
features. Not the whole thing. It is on the Microsoft website.
Cláudio Rodrigues
Microsoft MVP
Windows Technologies - Terminal Server
-----Original Message-----
From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Anthony Abraham
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 11:49 PM
To: 'thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [THIN] Matrix for Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows 2003's Terminal
Services (RDP)
Hi
Does anyone have a matrix that compares Metaframe XP (ICA) and Windows
2003's Terminal Services (RDP). Ive seen older matrixes but would like the
latest product comparisons. Our organisation is tossing up between the
2
technologies and the breakdown may assist my cause in pushing Citrix
Thanks
Anthony
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This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale What's keeping you from getting
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Utilization IS NOT the single biggest constraint to scaling up?! Get this
free white paper to understand the real constraints & how to overcome them.
SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather than buying more servers.
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This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale What's keeping you from getting
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Utilization IS NOT the single biggest constraint to scaling up?! Get this
free white paper to understand the real constraints & how to overcome them.
SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather than buying more servers.
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This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale What's keeping you from getting
more from your terminal servers? Did you know, in most cases, CPU
Utilization IS NOT the single biggest constraint to scaling up?! Get this
free white paper to understand the real constraints & how to overcome them.
SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather than buying more servers.
http://www.rtosoft.com/Enter.asp?ID=147
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For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use
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This Week's Sponsor - RTO Software / TScale
What's keeping you from getting more from your terminal servers? Did you know,
in most cases, CPU Utilization IS NOT the single biggest constraint to scaling
up?! Get this free white paper to understand the real constraints & how to
overcome them. SAVE MONEY by scaling-up rather than buying more servers.
http://www.rtosoft.com/Enter.asp?ID=147
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