thanks, for the information. I'm having a problem that perhaps some of you can reconcile if you have the time. We were able to observe all 4 juvenile red tails from above (fields with a lower elevation than the road, and the dam road. All of these birds had a bold distinct white band at the base of the folded tail and the tail feathers were quite dark. In my scan of images on the internet of juvenile red tails, none showed the distinct white band. Do you have an example of the bird that I might identify with? thanks, Tom Fleming Grand Prairie Edit your Freelists account settings for TEXBIRDS at //www.freelists.org/list/texbirds Reposting of traffic from TEXBIRDS is prohibited without seeking permission from the List Owner