These links will help characterization_of_a_printed_circuit_board_via http://www.coe.montana.edu/ee/lameres/vitae/publications/1_thesis/thesis _002_msee.pdf Dr. Johnson constructs a working large scale model of a via, large enough so the he can reach into the board and modify the structure from within while observing, in real-time, the electrical behavior of the via. http://www.sigcon.com/SiLab/Via_clip.wmv 3D field solvers versus Network Analyzer and real models Many of you are already using coupons to assess the quality of your boards. For those they are not familiar, Test coupons are typically small sections around the periphery of a board with exactly the same layers stackup as the main PCB that are fabricated at the same time as the PCB. Coupons are or may be used to test a number of PCB features that determine impedance, design integrity, etc. The opportunity exists to assess via-model-designs at practically no cost to the project other than the via design time and lab assessment to characterize the results: I envision a series of coupon with the various vias and anti-pads as well as guard grounds place so these may be connectorized with surface mount sma or sna connectors compatible with your Network analyzer. This will allow an engineer to extract an S parameter model from each physical module which may be useful for further simulation. (Most high speed circuit simulators will be able to use S parameter model in simulations.) This may seem, on the face of it, an expensive approach. In reality, it is cheaper and quicker than 3D field solving but DOES NOT produce an exact solution. Understand this: The optimum via design is rarely the one used as board space is not available to contain all the signals and all the grounds in the same area. As density of vias go up, the ground planes are literally carved away near the BGAs where circuit density is the highest. What also goes away is exact prediction of circuit behavior without exact 3D modeling which is time intensive and uses expensive software tools. Steven Salkow Lockheed IS&S 3130 Zanker Rd, San Jose Ca. 94588 steven.salkow@xxxxxxxx salkow@xxxxxxxxxxxx ________________________________ From: chand basha [mailto:chand_374@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 12:03 AM To: Salkow, Steven; PaulClarke@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: ROOKIE: Anti-Pad Size Effect On Signal Integrity:By the formula, as F goes up, Xc goes down (was up by typo) Steven Salkow, its an excellent presentation, very simple really very simple, I have a dought in the last para i.e How do we tune via impedance? We use ground vias nearby and 3D Modeling tools that exist to fufill this purpose but that is beyond the scope of a short answer. if you can explain a littile bit about tuning the impedance with ground vias will be very much help full. Thanks in advance. chand "Salkow, Steven" <steven.salkow@xxxxxxxx> wrote: -----Original Message----- From: Salkow, Steven Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:59 PM To: 'PaulClarke@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'; 'si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] ROOKIE: Anti-Pad Size Effect On Signal Integrity Paul: I will make this simple are seems reasonable. It does, however, seem to me quite extraordinary that a mechanical fellow might be getting involved with Gigahertz design of vias. You're correct the effect does depend on speed. The "anti-pad" is used when building plane layers (i.e.: solid layers) using negative planes. It is the VOID area between the pad and the copper of the plane. The effect is to provide a capacitive reactive effect given by the formula Xc= 1/(2*pi*F*C) where f is frequency and C is capacitance. By the formula, as F goes up, Xc goes down (was up by typo). The C capacitance is given by the formula C = (Area*k*e)/length where length is really the distance the two areas are apart (in this case the width of the anti-pad (the bigger the gap, the smaller the capacitance). The effects of C is cumulative for multiple planes. If the anti-pad size is very large, are we out of the woods. NO! All signals used in modern design as transmission lines have a certain desirable impedance. The is the effective "resistance" of the line that best matches the driver electronics. When effective "resistance" of the line does not match the driver electronics one of two possibilities happen: The signal has energy reflected back to the source Or excessive energy is absorbed by the circuit a too little gets to the load. Anti-pads are designed to maintain the required effective "resistance" (impedance) of a transmission line at a matching value. What's that mean? If the line impedance and the driver impedance and the load impedance are all 50 ohms, then the via should be tuned to the same value. How do we tune via impedance? We use ground vias nearby and 3D Modeling tools that exist to fufill this purpose but that is beyond the scope of a short answer. Steven Salkow Lockheed IS&S 3130 Zanker Rd, San Jose Ca. 94588 steven.salkow@xxxxxxxx salkow@xxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Clarke, Paul Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:25 PM To: 'si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx' Subject: [SI-LIST] ROOKIE: Anti-Pad Size Effect On Signal Integrity Hello, Before you read the question please keep in mind that I am just a lowly Mechanical guy that has better odds of selecting the right bolt than I do designing an LED circuit. I have a question about how the size of an anti-pad can effect signal integrity. The example application could be a backplane @ 5, 10, 20, 40, or 80 [G] (I am asking for this range because I anticipate the answer may depend on the speed). If you have a BP via for a signal pair of .025" with a pad of .044", how much impact can an antipad have on the impendance through a range of sizes of let's say .054-.060"? Center-Center distance could be 2.1 [mm]. In the case described above, would the antipad size range really have any effects or is it negligible? Is an anti-pad just to keep solder off the pad if you flood the plane? Or is there an actual SI reason for those things? How sensitive is the SI to changes in antipad size? Any concerns regarding manufacturing tolerances on antipads? Thank you for any information and your patience explaining any of the above questions to a mechanical guy. Paul Clarke ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List FAQ wiki page is located at: http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.org List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu