I've had a personal experience, I will share that MIGHT shed some light...a champion going in the specials class (this is a dog that has won under both specialty and all breed judges...not Joli) and here is what the judge ( a GSD judge) said to the handler afterwards...."when you came in the ring with your dog, I thought this is my kind of GSD....gave the dog the breed over the other special and the class winners....when you came in the group ring with the dog and all the dogs went around the ring...I said to myself this GSD is my group dog....(sounds good so far doesn't it?)....but when you did the down and back, the dogs ears were not alert enough, where was its owner??? and when you went around the ring the last time, your dog tried to leave the ring...so I couldn't give him the group....now is it about showing or is it about structure???....now you may say that is All-Breed for you....however, my fellow exhibitors, you and I both know that it is at the speciality ring that we ALL out do each other in trying to get our dogs "to show"...to "alert for mom or dad"....with our bells and our whistles...etc etc....so this "showmanship" is definitely in both rings....as to the placements being a way of evaluating the dogs as the best ones for breeding purposes...that is all well and good...as a knowledgable judge, you can evaluate on structure, and generally temperment, but as a judge (unless you know the dog personally) you do not know what the genotype of these dogs are..so your placements as far as breeding stock is concerned could only be based on appearances and not the genetic make up of the dog (and I do not have to go into detail as to what that entails)...since on any given day you as the judge do not know what it is... And of course when you have a number of quality animals in the ring....it comes down to what one of our judges already mentioned, and that is the age old question of...which one would I take home with me...personal preferences, and as Evan would say..."not that there is anything wrong with that.." Pauline Moon Ropaja German Shepherd Dogs-Ch Ropaja's Chateau Beaulieu OFA HIC; BIS Ch Ropaja's Chateau Beaujolais OFA HIC; Ropaja's Viva L'Endimanche OFA; Beecher (Retired Seeing Eye Dog) ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================