Oh my GAWD, Kathy! I've been herding for over 20 years (training my own dogs as well as others...and worked trials with dogs when I'm not entered) and haven't seen as much destruction and mayhem as you have! My number one rule for myself as well as my students was that the sheep (stock) did not volunteer for this assignment and MUST be treated with respect....period. I also, tho, start ALL my students' dogs if they don't have herding experience. If the dog won't work without mommy in the ring, then mommy comes in with me. That is a last resort, tho. Under NO circumstances would I leave an inexperienced dog and inexperienced handler alone in a ring with sheep. Just like you wouldn't put a person who has never ridden on an unbroken horse, the same goes for sheep herding. Also, it looks like from your statement below that you saw some of the problems with sheep that weren't accustomed to being worked by dogs. It takes an experienced dog & handler to "dog break" sheep. It isn't easy and needs to be done correctly or you WILL have accidents. I'm not saying that sheep "enjoy" herding. I don't think they do. They would much rather graze or just laze around all day. Who wouldn't? :-) However, since most sheep used for herding would have long since gone to the butcher, I think if you DID give them a choice, they would say that herding is better than the alternative! Still, they need to be treated with respect and NOT being chewed up is paramount. Julie Degen _www.caissonkennels.com_ (http://www.caissonkennels.com/) "A well-balanced German Shepherd has a title on both ends!" In a message dated 9/24/2009 4:12:09 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: ----- Original Message ----- From: _Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxxx (mailto:Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx) To: _Stormy435@xxxxxxxx (mailto:Stormy435@xxxxxxx) ; _showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 5:29 AM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Herding with Dogs stresses sheep??? Oh they stress the sheep BIG time. Compared to many, I've had very limited experience training and trial-ing, but even w/ limited experience, I've seen <2> broken legs on sheep (green, that have hit an enclosure, not being chased by a GSD although it could have been), and many, many, MANY bloody sheep from dogs who just want a little taste! From what I can tell, ducks have it even worse as far as mortality rates. (I think the worst offenders I've seen have been the Malinois ~ they run by a sheep so fast you don't think anything happened until you see the red line under the sheep's belly...get out the needle and thread!!!! Or the Australian Cattle dogs who want to grab a sheep's muzzle...do sheep have a muzzle or is it just called a nose?...which can lead to sinus injury/painful damage and infection for the sheep.) ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2009. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================