NO shoulder blade or humerous meets the prosternum! It is literally impossible. The "forechest" .... "breastbone" or "prosternum" or "sternum is merely the 'breastplate' that carries...or protrudes up and forward from the central structure of the ribcage where it meets and joins in the CENTER. This plate of bone or cartilage-like bone is for the protection of the heart and lungs. It also protects the actual shoulder joints as the animal moves forward through brush and weeds. That is why it 'should' protrude to the forefront of the actual shoulder assembly. Ligature and muscle and flesh criss cross the front of the chest or breastplate......but it is not attached by any bone or joint to the shoulder assembly. Muscle and ligaments and flesh criss cross the entire structure of any skeletal structure. There is no joint in the shoulder that attaches it to the body per se.........it is literally "laid on" with ligaments and muscle unlike the pelvis and hip joints. The shoulder is a "moveable" part and is "set on" on the OUTSIDE of the ribbing and therefore cannot be attached to the sternum in the center by any joint or formation of a joint. Stroke the front of your dog's throat...and it is the "prosternum" that your hand hits as it strokes downward...IN THE CENTER.....no matter what the position or 'lay on' of the shoulders. It has absolutely nothing to do with the angle of the shoulder or the extension or movement of the shoulder as it is does not move. It CAN however give the "appearance" of a nice shoulder angle......by sticking out in front of a straight shoulder.....and thus the old term.... "false front". If you look at many photos of many dogs ( as in the Selects ) you will see every type of shoulder angulation imagineable and the same with the degree of forechests.......one having nothing to do with the other. As Mike says..... a dog overloaded with way too much forechest can be almost clumsy or 'cobby'....but typically that 'issue' goes with a dog that is very low on leg as with the Daschund or the Corgi......but has nothing to do with any of the many variations of shoulder angulation or movement that we see in our Breed. It also is not the "center of gravity" of any moving animal. The center of gravity remains the same at all times......central to the extension and length of the animal. ( by the way.......prosternum does not get past spell check ) <G> Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.Marhaven.com . ----- Original Message ----- From: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx To: lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx ; marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Cc: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:28 PMSubject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: Simply Amazing forechests.... Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh....have to disagree Carolyn. The point on that forechest "thing" (actually called a "breastbone" in our illustrated standard) is actually made where the shoulder blade and humerus meet. (Only if it were that easy...but to complicate matters, the whole area is overlaid w/ a lot of muscle...or it "should" be.) If the shoulder is "laid on wrong" (sorry, horse term), that is, if it is too straight and/or too short, and/or if there isn't the correct angle between the shoulder blade and humerus (aka upper arm), you will notice an "absence" of the prominence of the breastbone and you will see that movement is "off". Now, movement can be off in several ways depending on just "why" and how "wrong" the fore is....for instance is the blade too short??? too straight??? Is the upper arm too short?? too straight???? ate the bones in the wrong proportions???.....a dog can be "quick-stepping", a dog can lift, or as we see an awful lot today, even in pictures that folks use for ads (EEEEAAAAKKK!) a dog can move from the elbow...sort of like waving to the crowd. I don't know what caused Mike to post his inquiry, I privately mailed e-mailed him a photo of a dog w/ an obvious "breastbone" after <G>, but I will say in out PC publication and on various lists, I've seen folks post pics and go on and on about "fronts" as I scratch my head and say "WHAT front???" b-cause if you were to drop a string from the top of their shoulder to the floor, there would be far greater than the 90 degree angle that is supposed to be created by the shoulder blade and upper arm and you can't find a fore chest w/ a search warrant! Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions visit _http://www.pinehillgsds.com/_ (http://www.pinehillgsds.com/) In a message dated 2/22/2010 3:45:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx writes: Thanks Carolyn, a great post to build on So this is where I differ from that opinion, I do feel that if the shoulder is too far forward, exhibiting little or no forechest(forchest, fourchest, 4chest - ;-) ) it will affect the balance, since the center of gravity is now moved backwards in relation to the leg and shoulder changing the cantilever point and perhaps resulting in a lifting of the forehand particularly if coupled with a straight shoulder. regards, and would love to get you feedback M -----From: "Carolyn Martello" <marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: lindenhillgsd@xxxxxxxxxxx, showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 2:19:00 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Re: Simply Amazing forechests.... Hi Mike; I meant to respond to your post........but got lost in the flurry of other responses over the weekend and ended up deleting all the posts.......therefore depending on a pretty pitiful memory!! I can tell you that I like things "simplified"......so I refer to it as "forechest"......<G>....and since it has absolutely nothing to do with the movement of the dog there is no 'specified' measurement of it that I know of.....other than "showing ahead of the shoulder in profile" and it should be deep and capacious....... As Goldbecker explained it ......the "purpose" of the forechest is for the herding dog gaiting through weeds and small low brush to catch the brunt of the constant chafing.......and simply for the beautiful balanced outline and appearance of our Breed, as I understand it. Beautiful forechest is a nice addition in beautiful type in it's "appearance" on our GSD....but especially on a nice 'stallion' male. Too much and a dog can appear and be "overloaded' and clumsy. In my opinion it has absolutely nothing to do with the angle of the shoulder nor the front extension of a correct shoulder. Thanks for trying to actually open up a discussion about THE DOGS!!! Hang in there......... Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.Marhaven.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Lindenhill German Shepherds To: showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:02 AM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Simply Amazing As I often do, I recently posted a subject on the list to instigate a discussion on certain aspects of structure of our beloved breed. Expecting a lively educational and informative discussion(some of which I got) I was not disappointed., unfortunately the object of that discussion turned into a who's resource for a given term was correct or not. I tried to steer the discussion back to the topic but what was quite surprised by the pasion displayed by those list members focused on the correct spelling debate. My disappointment is that many of those who engaged in that debate, I had held in high regard, I say to you - please do some self examination(as will I) on your motives and attitude as well as your communication style. It is very easy to get out of hand on a limitted communication medium such as this and does little to suggest how your mentoring is beneficial to others. If the list has truly devolved to that level, it offers both me as an experienced breeder nor the new comer little if any hope of learning anything of value here. I suggest that If you have a suggestion or a correction for someones post, please, as a matter of etiquette I suggest you address it privately and allow them to make(or not) a correction. My days here are numbered, Regards, M ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2009. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://showgsd.org NATIONAL BLOG - http://gsdnational.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================