RE: Really OT Blind Pilot? Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
- From: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 16:30:34 -0500
Actually it's only 10 to 20 million, depending on when you go and all that.
I'm sorry, but that's so worth it to me ... something about wanting to be an
astrophysicist before I could spell the word and reading hawking and Kip
Thorn's stuff when I was 7, for the first time, and then repeatedly again
every other year ... enjoying them, and always learning more from them.
And here I am in computer science ... well, the money's better, that's for
sure, and I do so love the field, but *sigh*, I'd give anything to sit on a
mostly stable bomb and get blasted into space.
Anyways, we are so beyond off topic.
Take care,
Sina
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Greer
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 4:17 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Really OT Blind Pilot? Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
hmmm, how about the space shuttle. It is pretty much computer controlled
from take off to landing. In fact the Russians have said they will take
anyone up as long as the price is right. Maybe the first spare 100 million
someone gets they can go up and write to the list how it was.----- Original
Message -----
From: "James Panes" <jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 6:59 AM
Subject: Really OT Blind Pilot? Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
> Hmmmm, a blind pilot. I suppose that with audio and tactile AT, it
> might be possible. The real problem with both a blind pilot and a
> blind web designer is that the tactile and audio channels are much
> narrower band width inputs than sight. It is a fact that pilots land
> planes blind frequently. They rely on the readings from their
> instruments to land in low visibility conditions where the amount they
> can see out the aircraft windows is worse than useless.
>
> As things are right now, we are not going to see blind race-car
> drivers or pilots any time soon, but don't be so close-minded about it.
>
> Regards,
> Jim
> jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
> jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> "Everything is easy when you know how."
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alex Parks" <mehgcap@xxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 7:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
> I agree, Rick. Some things are not going to happen for blind
> people--if I get on a plane and the pilot is blind, I am most
> certainly getting right back off. However, I know many blind people
> who are very successful at whatever they do, from running a vending
> machine business to hiking the Apalation (sorry for the
> spelling) Trail. I am blind and want a degree in computer science so
> I can work for HW or a similar company. Just because someone cannot
> see means nothing, especially in this age of such powerful and "smart"
> technology. As I said, some things are out of the reach of people
> with no sight but in 50 years.. Who knows? Since this is supposed to
> be a list about programming, though, can we please get it back on
> track and not have 20+ messages a day on this topic?
>
> Have a great day,
> Alex
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Rick Harmon" <rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Date sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:04:45 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>>Matthew,
>
>>It seems as if you aren't willing to give someone qualified to do
> their job
>>a chance if they are blind? I hope this isn't so since you are
> blind
>>yourself. I'd hate to see someone discriminate against you soely
> because of
>>your being blind. I know I don't want to be discriminated
> against soley
>>because of my being blind. I'm not sure if your just trying to
> prove a
>>point or your really meaning what you've said in your posts. You
> said you
>>wouldn't have a blind lawyer and now a blind doctor either.
> Please explain.
>
>>If someone is qualified to do their job then it's simply not fair
> to say you
>>wouldn't allow them to do their job for you based on the fact
> they are
>>blind.
>
>>Thanks,
>
>>Rick
>
>
>>--
>>Visit my webpage and podcast feed at:
>>http://www.blind-geek-zone.net
>>and my web Blog at:
>>http://blind-geek-zone.blogspot.com/
>>Join the BGZ mailing list by sending a blank email message to:
>>blind_geek_zone-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> and put subscribe in the subject line.
>
>>Contact info:
>
>>Email - rickharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx & rharmon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Skype -
>>rharmon928 MSN - rharmon928@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Matthew2007" <matthew2007@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 6:52 PM
>>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>>In your own opinion you're good. What objective measures or
> assessments can
>>you show for your claims? My point is that you are making the
> same mistake
>>as those who claim blind people can make websites as good as
> sighted people.
>>They are basing their arguments on personal anecdotal experience.
> I'm sorry
>>but if I walked into a medical center and discovered that the
> person helping
>>my elderly parent learn to control her Parkinson's related
> movement disorder
>>is a blind person, I'm going somewhere else. I want someone who
> will be able
>>to make an educated comprehensive assessment based on their own
> assessment
>>of the situation and not have to go through someone else to
> convey to them
>>the patient's physical movements.
>
>>Matthew
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Dale Leavens" <dleavens@xxxxxxx
>>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 1:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>>This entire thread is ridiculous. Loads of sighted people can't
> design a
>>decent Web site. Just when did it become necessary for each and
> every blind
>>person to perform above the standard of the best sighted designer
> or
>>anything else for that matter. That is a pretty high standard
> and just below
>>God.
>
>>Loads of blind programmers and Web authors can out design and out
> code many
>>thousands maybe millions of Web pages out there. Why isn't that
> enough? If
>>one excels for any reason at any level let us celebrate that.
>
>>I am a Physiotherapist. I am darn good at rehabilitating
> acquired brain
>>injuries, I suck at respiratory conditions and don't much care.
> This does
>>not negate my value. Admittedly I haven't won any awards either.
>
>>Congratulations and thank you to the extent I, as a blind person
> can benefit
>>from any reflected glory.
>
>>Now can we possibly return to the regularly scheduled programme?
>>Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
>>DLeavens@xxxxxxx
>>Skype DaleLeavens
>>Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear
> habitat.
>
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Léonie Watson" <tink@xxxxxxxxxx
>>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 3:14 PM
>>Subject: RE: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>>Matthew,
>
>>You seem to be suggesting that a VI person can't succeed, or rise
> to
>>eminence in their field, in a sighted world. I sincerely hope
> that you're
>>suggesting nothing of the kind, but perhaps you'd be good enough
> to clarify
>>your scepticism?
>
>
>> Regards,
>>Léonie.
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Matthew2007
>>Sent: 29 November 2007 16:30
>>To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>>In an effort to take your anecdotal post and bring it to life,
> name these
>>people. I want to try to find them and research the particulars
> of their
>>situations. After all, there is a nice big picture from 2003 of
> that moron
>>in the white house standing on a freight carrier next to a sign
> stating
>>"victory." We all know what this picture leads us to believe, but
> the truth
>>is very different.
>
>>Matthew
>>---- Original Message -----
>>From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:45 AM
>>Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>>> *taking a deep breath*, *counting to ten*,
>
>>> *reciting mantra's to calm my spirit*
>
>>> teddy, one doesn't become a professional foot ball player in the
> NFL by
>>> being better than the worst foot ball player, or by being even
> with the
>>> average players despite his having only half of his right
> foot...
>
>>> one does not become a respected and well paid attorney by being
> just
>>> better than someone who knows nothing about the intricacies of
> the law,
>>> nor a professional class skier by being equal to sighted average
> skiers,
>>> despite the fact that the gentleman is both blind and a double
> amputee...
>
>>> one does not earn the title of fencing master, even sighted, by
> only
>>> fencing with those who are average with a foil, or by fencing
> only with
>>> those who are blind, even if one is blind themselves..
>
>>> these are the types of people I am talking about, they are
> masters of
>>> there fields, despite there disadvantages, not over those who
> don't or
>>> haven't learned how, I'm talking about people with distinct
> disadvantages
>>> that makes there choice of work seem ridiculous to many, and
> force the
>>> world to recognize that if one wishes to, and is willing to do
> what is
>>> required to accomplish it, that they can be a top gun in there
> field, no
>>> matter what...
>
>>> quit with the f... reeking you can't, because if one of us
> wishes to put
>>> forth the effort, and the time, we can, period end of quote!
>
>>> inthane
>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
> Programs, and
>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
> visit me
>>> at:
>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
> programming
>>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:06 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>>>> Oh yes that could be true. There are sighted persons that don't
> even know
>
>>>> how to use a computer. So we can say that we as web designers
> are better
>>>> at web design than them. But who cares that we can be better
> than those
>>>> sighted that don't know too many things?
>>>> We should be better comparing us with the medium-skilled sighted
> web
>>>> designer.... at least.
>>>> But unfortunately a medium-skilled web designer might know to
> create
>>>> images, maybe a little Flash, some Javascript, and nobody will
> care that
>>>> he doesn't put a document type declaration at the top of his web
> pages,
>>>> or that his pages won't be W3C compliant.
>
>>>> If you will check the Google's web page with the W3C's html
> validator, it
>
>>>> will tell you:
>
>>>> Failed validation, 30 Errors
>
>>>> So... of course W3C's validator is not important at all,
> because Google's
>
>>>> page is very accessible, very simple, and with a design....
> better said
>>>> almost without any design.
>
>
>>>> Octavian
>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:40 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>>>>> teddy that is far from what I meant, my computer locked up on my
>>>>> previous reply, so I'll take my time since I seem to have a
> habit of
>>>>> overloading my machine, and I'll get back on this later, if I
> don't
>>>>> decide it doesn't warrant a reply when I cool down..
>
>>>>> I can tell you about a number of "handicapped" people that have
> mastered
>
>>>>> areas that are thought of as "sighted and fit" only areas as
> well or
>>>>> better than most of there "whole and healthy" fellow humans
>
>>>>> laters,
>>>>> inthane
>>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
> Programs, and
>>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
> visit
>>>>> me at:
>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
> programming
>
>>>>> languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Octavian Rasnita" <orasnita@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:32 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>>>>>> Oh yes, that's true, and sometimes the screen reader doesn't
> even show
>>>>>> us the correct colors, and even if it show us that 2 words come
> one
>>>>>> after another in the same line, it doesn't tell us that maybe
> the first
>
>>>>>> is a static word in a iframe element and the other one is a text
>>>>>> written dynamicly by a javascript code, and it might scroll
> slowly up
>>>>>> or down becoming very confusing for us at a page refresh.
>
>>>>>> I think we shouldn't fight for beeing what we can't be. Oh yes,
> there
>>>>>> are handicapped people without a leg that participate in
> different
>>>>>> sports, showing that they can do more, but we all know that they
> will
>>>>>> never be equal to a healthy person, no matter how good or bad he
> is.
>
>>>>>> And let's not forget that the productivity of the work is also
>>>>>> important. What we can do would have a very low value if we
> would be
>>>>>> able to do it in a much longer period than a sighted designer.
>
>>>>>> Octavian
>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "inthaneelf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:35 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>>>>>>> which except for rare occasions is not practical Marlon, since
> we live
>
>>>>>>> in a sighted world, and the majority of folks that we are going
> to
>>>>>>> need to deal with are sighted, I'm sorry that you have no
> experience
>>>>>>> in the visual view of things, this is one area where I have an
>>>>>>> advantage.
>
>>>>>>> but... you can't avoid the visual world, it's out there, it's
> the
>>>>>>> majority, and so you might as well learn the tricks for dealing
> with
>>>>>>> it, use the standards and templates when and where you can, and
> do
>>>>>>> your best to adapt.
>
>>>>>>> the best description for trying to convey sight to a person that
> has
>>>>>>> never had it, was spoken by a blind dude that never had sight in
> his
>>>>>>> life,
>
>>>>>>> its the description I use now a days, since I have found myself
> often
>>>>>>> trying to describe visual aspects to those who have never had
> site.
>
>>>>>>> one thing you should do if you haven't, go to a web site, keep
>>>>>>> yourself at the top of the page, and turn on the invisible
> cursor and
>>>>>>> go up and down the page to see what it actually looks like, such
> as,
>>>>>>> the that that instead of the vertical column that jaws presents
> us
>>>>>>> with, that its actually more like a message written in Braille,
>>>>>>> including the navigation links which run from left to right
> across the
>
>>>>>>> page, not in the vertical column that is presented to us.
>
>>>>>>> take care, and good luck,
>>>>>>> inthane
>>>>>>> . For Blind Programming assistance, Information, Useful
> Programs, and
>>>>>>> Links to Jamal Mazrui's Text tutorial packages and Applications,
> visit
>
>>>>>>> me at:
>>>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>>> . to be able to view a simple programming project in several
>>>>>>> programming languages, visit the Fruit basket demo site at:
>>>>>>> http://fruitbasketdemo.alacorncomputer.com
>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Marlon Brandão de Sousa" <splyt.lists@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:01 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>>>>>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>>>>> Well I have never seen ... so I have no a ... let's call it
> ..
>>>>>>>> visual
>>>>>>>> standards so, although I can technically do it very well ... I
> can
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> plan, like imagine, build ... a nice visual interface, because
> I
>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>> know what it is expected. A quick example is I beleaved
>>>>>>>> gfirmly
> that
>>>>>>>> the windows explorer put the folder treeview in the top and the
>>>>>>>> listview below it, and I couldn't beleave when a guy tould me
>>>>>>>> naturally that the treeview was in the left and the listview
>>>>>>>> was
> in
>>>>>>>> the right!!!!
>>>>>>>> Similarly, because of the top down aproach most part of screen
>>>>>>>> readers use to present web content, I have dificulties to
>>>>>>>> imagine hwat exactly sighted people expect to see in a webpage
>>>>>>>> or something like
> this.
>>>>>>>> I can plan the components of the interface, but deciding * and
>>>>>>>> putting
>>>>>>>> * them in the more "apropriate" place or planning what would
> happen
>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>> one changes their screen resolution or diicovering by teory how
>>>>>>>> browsers would react to it without testing is something very
>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>> If I had been sighted (and lost my sight after the modern look
> and
>>>>>>>> feel's I perhaps would be totally able to build interfaces
>>>>>>>> based
> on
>>>>>>>> the standards of what should be common to folks, but the only
> thing I
>>>>>>>> can do for now is build an interface based on someone's
>>>>>>>> specifications. And even then I will spend eforts trying to
> build
>>>>>>>> something which belongs to a group of situations that I can't
> imagine
>>>>>>>> very well ... and, again, I wouldn't be able to test my own
> work,
>>>>>>>> which seen something pretty nasty to any [programmer I know of
> ..
>>>>>>>> now
>>>>>>>> the point is: For sure many blind folks can do gui's, but they
> will
>>>>>>>> feel more confortable and be more productive if they're doing
>>>>>>>> something which has not a visual result as its goal ... which
> should
>>>>>>>> be perfectly logical.
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>> Marlon
>
>>>>>>>> 2007/11/28, jaffar <jaffar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Jim. Excellent news. Congrats Jeff. Just shows what, if
> you
>>>>>>>>> all will
>>>>>>>>> forgive the pun, application will do for one, not to mention
> hard
>>>>>>>>> work and
>>>>>>>>> determination, and the willingness to try. Cheers!
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:42 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Team Excellence Award Winner
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>>> Where I consult, one of our fellow listers was on a team who
>>>>>>>>>> won
> a
>
>>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>> prestigious award. The team developed a highly visible web
>>>>>>>>>> application.
>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Fidler designed and coded the GUI interface for the site
>>>>>>>>>> using HTML, CSS and Javascript. He used Section 508 and W3C
>>>>>>>>>> techniques and
> the
>
>>>>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>>>>> people in the company rave about it.
>
>>>>>>>>>> I write this to urge anyone who thinks that someone who is
>>>>>>>>>> blind cannot design Web interfaces well to keep on trying.
>>>>>>>>>> You can do it.
>
>>>>>>>>>> Jim
>
>>>>>>>>>> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
>>>>>>>>>> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
>
>>>>>>>>>> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens
>>>>>>>>>> can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever
>>>>>>>>>> has." -- Margaret Mead
>
>>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>
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>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>
>
>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows," people
> just
>>>>>>>> stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system,
> for
>>>>>>>> free."
>>>>>>>> Linus Torvalds
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>
>
>
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