RE: Ed-sharp bug report
- From: "Homme, James" <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 10:20:39 -0500
Hi,
It sounds like you are talking about the ability to hit F8 to start marking a
block and Shift F8 to mark the end and select a block.
Jim
Jim Homme,
Usability Services,
Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
Internal recipients, Read my accessibility blog. Discuss accessibility here.
Accessibility Wiki: Breaking news and accessibility advice
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 8:06 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: The Elf
Subject: Re: Ed-sharp bug report
Interesting. I don't think the EdSharp scripts have changed much in
years, so that puzzles me. If you can report a particular difference in
behavior that you notice between older and current scripts, that could
help us debug.
Jamal
On 12/9/2010 2:56 AM, The Elf wrote:
> Jamal, one thing I have done, is I utilize the older jaws scripts in my
> newer versions of Ed sharp, this may have problems with new features,
> but newer features isn't my main drive with Ed sharp, its the old and
> still talked about block selection ability that keeps me coming back.
>
> so I use the older jaws scripts since I like there operation better.
>
> and I although still on XP, haven't had a lot of the troubles others
> have related.
>
> HTH,
> elf
> Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and go good
> with bar-b-q sauce.
> - Unknown *burp*
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "Sina Bahram" <sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Ed-sharp bug report
>
>
>> Excellent feedback -- thanks, Sina! I appreciate your taking the time
>> to write with specific observations and ideas. I have saved your
>> message for further review. Let me respond initially as follows.
>>
>> Indeed, the EdSharp installer does not currently ask whether to
>> install a destop shortcut. The choice is only whether to add a
>> system-wide hotkey to that shortcut of Alt+Control+E. Unfortunately, I
>> have not found a way to make that happen on every Windows version,
>> seemingly for security-related reasons. So, even if I accept the
>> default hotkey on Windows Vista, it will not actually be enabled until
>> I press Alt+Enter on the desktop to edit its properties, and instruct
>> the shortcut to run as administrator. The hotkey is not part of the
>> Start Menu shortcut. The reasoning is that it is minimal cost, except
>> for one item in a list, to add the shortcut to the list of desktop or
>> Sart Menu items, but the hotkey should be confirmed so that it does
>> not risk replacing an existing global hotkey. There is no use of the
>> Quick Launch bar by the installer.
>>
>> Neither EdSharp, via the JAWS API, nor the JAWS scripts for EdSharp,
>> intervene in menu processing in ways that could explain the delays you
>> experience, as far as I know. Sorry, but I do not know the cause,
>> other than JAWS processing of .NET menus (which are not Win32 menus).
>> What Windows version are you using? 32 or 64 bit?
>>
>> I will review trigger keys for menu items. In general (with a few
>> exceptions), I find such trigger letters to be of little value to
>> users. In general, I think users either navigate to the menu item of
>> interest and press Enter, or alternatively, learn the direct,
>> accelerator key combination, and press that instead, bypassing the
>> menu system entirely. I am generalizing, and appreciate your points in
>> a systematic analysis for unique trigger letters in menus.
>>
>> I have tried to completely hide Microsoft Word while invoking its
>> spellchecker, alas, without success so far. I have closely studied the
>> COM object documentation. My code sets properties to make Word
>> invisible. I changed calls to VB, which before C# 4.0, considerably
>> worked more harmoniously with COM than C#. If anyone can help me
>> tighten that code, I would appreciate the contribution.
>>
>> I will look at refining speech around the Undo command, and other
>> speech suggestions you mention.
>>
>> Jamal
>>
>> On 12/5/2010 4:41 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>> Jamal,
>>>
>>> I installed ed-sharp, latest version, today, and I ran into the
>>> following issues within the first few minutes of use. I just wanted
>>> to report them in hopes of making this better for other users.
>>>
>>> #1: installer doesn't ask about shortcuts
>>>
>>> The installer didn't let me choose, like most do, whether I want an
>>> icon on my desktop. Can this be added?
>>>
>>> It also concerned me about whether it was putting something in my
>>> quick launch. I hope it's not, as I always uncheck this option
>>> from every installer I come across, but it would be nice to have that
>>> standard installer screen, if possible.
>>>
>>> I simply deleted the icon, after I installed the program, but it
>>> would be nice for it not to get created in the first place.
>>>
>>> #2: control+alt+e keystroke doesn't work, and in fact isn't assigned.
>>>
>>> So I was told that control+alt+E launches ed-sharp by the installer,
>>> but when I pressed it after the install was done, nothing
>>> happened. I tried it several times, and then I actually investigated
>>> the "launch ed-sharp" icon in the start-menu, and found that
>>> the launch keystroke field was empty; thus, that made sense why it
>>> didn't work. After I manually added control+alt+e to that field,
>>> it of course started working.
>>>
>>> #3: the elevate command always updates
>>>
>>> When in ed-sharp, I pressed f11 just to verify I was at the latest
>>> version, but apparently I am not, or the elevate command is
>>> broken because it said comparing to server, and then it offered me a
>>> download of the exact version I just installed. In other words,
>>> it never bothered telling me that the version on my computer and the
>>> server are the same, and it also makes the user think that they
>>> aren't, since it offers a download.
>>>
>>> I would suggest maybe changing the button or message to reinstall or
>>> something like that, if the versions are identical, so that the
>>> user doesn't think they are at an older version?
>>>
>>> #4: delay in file menus when using jaws
>>>
>>> I installed the jaws scripts, as I had no reason not to, using the
>>> last page of the installer, and they compiled correctly; however,
>>> when in ed-sharp, the menu bar is a little laggy. What I mean by this
>>> is that if I hit alt, and then arrow through file, edit,
>>> delete, navigate, etc, etc ... It's a little slow. I'm guessing that
>>> this is possibly because of the JFWAPI being used or something
>>> like that; however, it's kind of irritating, especially if you have
>>> your jaws set to decently fast; for example, I listen to
>>> eloquence at 80% speed, as defined by the jaws verbosity box, and
>>> there's about an extra 300 to 600 millisecond delay, as if jaws is
>>> being instructed to speak, as opposed to doing it itself. My question
>>> would be, A. can this be fixed/sped up? And B. if it's just a
>>> file menu, why is the JFWAPI being used? That it of course assumes
>>> that it even is being used, and the delay isn't caused by
>>> something else of course.
>>>
>>> Note, this delay is especially noticeable when hitting keystrokes
>>> like alt+f or alt+e to bring up menus. Almost to the point where
>>> you think you hit the keystroke wrong or something, and then you
>>> realize that the menu is coming up, but just slowly.
>>>
>>> #5: alt+tabbing to ed-sharp doesn't announce the title
>>>
>>> When you alt+tab to almost any other application, jaws reads the
>>> title of the window for you, letting you know two things. It let's
>>> you know that the alt+tab successfully completed and that focus is on
>>> that window, and by announcing the window title, it gives you
>>> whatever information the application developer wishes to convey in
>>> their title bar.
>>>
>>> This doesn't happen with ed-sharp. When I alt+tab to it, I get
>>> silence ... Jaws doesn't make a peep. This is a bit jarring.
>>>
>>> #6: in the file menu, several characters map to different choices:
>>>
>>> In the file menu, I can hit o to open, open in other format, or open
>>> again.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, o just activates open, which is the correct behavior
>>> according to the underlying technology being used for the file
>>> menu. Could the other two options be assigned different menu
>>> accelerators? Their menu shortcuts are of course unique, but their
>>> accelerators are the same.
>>>
>>> This is true in other places too, but even in the file menu, you can
>>> see it with set favorite and save both being mapped to s.
>>>
>>> Note: what I've seen adopted as official policy by some UI developers
>>> is that you start with the first letter, then move your way
>>> through the word for subsequent accelerators. Some folks go further
>>> and state that vowels are excluded from this, although I
>>> personally disagree with that approach and think all characters are
>>> fair game; for example, o for open makes perfect sense, although
>>> p for "open again" doesn't because p should map to print, so you have
>>> an exclusion tree whereby the first letter of every menu item
>>> is put into a set, which by definition is a unique list, and then
>>> this set is used as an exclusion list as you step through the
>>> characters of the duplicate menu item.
>>>
>>> One side note, another popular approach, of which I do tend to be a
>>> fan of, is to use the first letter of subsequent words, before
>>> going back for second and third letters of the original word. E.G.
>>> "save as" maps to 'a'.
>>>
>>> The algorithm for this is rather straight forward, with one huge
>>> caveat (discussed below), if you think about it, and goes like
>>> this.
>>>
>>> I have the following six menu items.
>>>
>>> New
>>> Save
>>> Save as
>>> Open
>>> Open recent
>>> Exit
>>>
>>> First I take the six characters and put them into a list, which is
>>> technically called a bag:
>>>
>>> bag(n, s, s, o, o, e)
>>>
>>> And then I turn that bag into a set, like this:
>>>
>>> set = unique(bag)
>>>
>>> So I get:
>>>
>>> set(n, s, o, e)
>>>
>>> And then I have a set of characters I've used as accelerators, which
>>> starts out empty:
>>>
>>> accelerators()
>>>
>>> Now, I add characters to that list, for each menu item, being careful
>>> to disallow duplicates, which closure property I get for free
>>> as a result of using a set instead of a bag, like so:
>>>
>>> New gives us n
>>>
>>> So we have:
>>>
>>> accelerators(n)
>>>
>>> Open gives us o
>>>
>>> So we have
>>>
>>> accelerators(n, o)
>>>
>>> Open again gives us o, but wait, o already exists in accellerators,
>>> so we go to the first character of the next word which gives us
>>> an 'a':
>>> // see the cavviot section for why 'a' is a bad choice
>>> // the correct choice here is 'g' because 'g' comes after 'a' in the
>>> word "again"
>>>
>>> accelerators(n, o, g)
>>>
>>> Then we get s for save, and so on
>>>
>>> accelerators(n, o, g, s)
>>>
>>> Then "save as" gives us 'a'
>>>
>>> accelerators(n, o, g, s, a)
>>>
>>> And then, finally, exit gives us 'e'
>>> // again, see the cavviot section for why 'e' is a bad choice
>>> // going with x instead
>>>
>>> accelerators(n, o, g, s, a, x)
>>>
>>> And of course accellerators == unique(accellerators); thus proving
>>> it's in fact a set, and not a bag.
>>>
>>> *** Huge Haunking Caveat Section: ***
>>>
>>> Now, the reason that this algorithm unfortunately can't be programmed
>>> in, and has to really be done by hand, or at least whose
>>> output needs to be revised by hand is that there are idioms users
>>> have come to expect. As is the case with all things in computer
>>> science, humans get in the way of elegant algorithms, almost always.
>>>
>>> So, for example, we assigned 'a' to save again, but this really isn't
>>> what we want. We really want to assign it 'g', because users
>>> have come to expect that 'a' is always save as in a file menu, just
>>> like how s is save, and how o is open.
>>>
>>> Thus, if one is prone to think about things in an algorithmic point
>>> of view, just imagine a 2-ply deep file menu priority tree
>>> where the semantics of these common idioms are stored; such as, under
>>> the file node: 'a' maps to "save as", 'o' maps to "open", and
>>> so on. Then use the same algorithm as above, but use the idiom tree
>>> as a higher priority exclusion list than the accellerators set,
>>> indexing into the idiom tree with the menu item name, of course.
>>>
>>> To be fair, the above is more of a heuristic than an algorithm, but I
>>> do find that it works super well, and takes all the guess work
>>> out of picking accelerators in menus.
>>>
>>> #7: spell check issues
>>>
>>> When I hit f7 for spell check, I get some rather odd behavior. It
>>> initializes Microsoft word, GUI and all, in the background. I
>>> understand why it does this, because, why reimplement/reinvent spell
>>> check, when Microsoft word exists right there on the user's
>>> machine; however, can you just use word as a com object without
>>> invoking the UI, just like that code snippet I sent out a really
>>> long time ago about how to use Visual Studio 2005 without invoking
>>> the UI! This brings up a further question of whether the spell
>>> check functionality is able to be used via com, without actually
>>> invoking the main MSWord object at all. Is that possible?
>>>
>>> Moving on. I perform a spell check, and then I'm never told that
>>> spell check is over. I don't even really know I'm back in my
>>> document in ed-sharp, probably because of the earlier bug where the
>>> title isn't read out, but what's even more frustrating is that
>>> spell-check didn't clean up after itself, and I have this empty
>>> Microsoft word document in the background.
>>>
>>> Also, sometimes, although I can't replicate this particular issue on
>>> demand, so sorry about that, but sometimes, it focuses said
>>> empty Microsoft word document, instead of ed-sharp, after the
>>> spell-check is complete.
>>>
>>> #8: undo doesn't announce selection
>>>
>>> Would it be possible for undo to announce if it's undone action
>>> results in selected text?
>>>
>>> For example, write a sentence, and then highlight that sentence and
>>> hit the delete key. Now hit control+z for undo. It would be nice
>>> if ed-sharp told you that the sentence that was brought back from the
>>> great bit bucket in the sky was highlighted, simply by saying
>>> the word selected before reading the sentence, as it does now.
>>>
>>> There are some other things as well, but the number 8 is a nice
>>> binary number, so I wanted to stop there.
>>>
>>> Thanks much, and happy hacking.
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Sina
>>>
>>> __________
>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
This e-mail and any attachments to it are confidential and are intended solely
for use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and then
delete it. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not keep, use,
disclose, copy or distribute this e-mail without the author's prior permission.
The views expressed in this e-mail message do not necessarily represent the
views of Highmark Inc., its subsidiaries, or affiliates.
__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
Other related posts:
