RE: Developing cross-platform, accessible apps

  • From: Roopakshi Pathania <r_akshi_tgk@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 10:06:50 -0700 (PDT)

Hi,

Not that my knowledge is really extensive, I’m not a hardcore programmer, more 
like a tinkerer.
But there are 2 aspects to automatically labeling a control. 

Any platform that insists on labeling a control automatically using some kind 
of a constructor reduces the flexibility available to the developers. The 
method invoked to auto-label your single edit line field would require the 
label to be placed at a fixed position, have a maximum length, or even require 
a set distance between the label and the control. 
Only Apple has that kind of clout to dictate terms to the developers. <smile>

The next situation could be where the developer decides to create a custom 
object to make her task easier and less repetitive. In this case, code can be 
written to add an edit box and its label, and then to call the setLabelFor 
method of the label. Such a control would need methods for setting label size, 
label position relative to edit box, size of edit box, etc.
In this kind of a custom control, you would need to take account of so many 
things, size of label (may try and do it automatically for the text in the 
label but it probably would need to allow the developer to manually set the 
label size), size of control, etc. However some things may be able to be 
reduced out as you probably have a standard for the 
application (e.g. you probably will always have labels on one side of the 
checkboxes, you probably have a set spacing you want the label from the 
control, etc).

Regards
Roopakshi

--- On Wed, 6/16/10, Homme, James <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> From: Homme, James <james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: Developing cross-platform, accessible apps
> To: "programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Wednesday, June 16, 2010, 10:07 PM
> Hi,
> My knowledge of this kind of thing  is shallow, so I
> hope that I'm going to ask this question correctly.
> 
> Let's just say that you know that you want a platform to
> exhibit certain behaviors for accessibility reasons. For
> example, you know that every time you create a single line
> edit field that you need a label control to come with it.
> Further, you need certain properties set certain ways.
> Wouldn't you want to create an object that you could give to
> a developer that removes the burden of remembering to write
> the code a certain way, and at least, as a minimum, even if
> the developer does nothing, you get sensible results?
> 
> Take our single line edit control. You'd probably use a
> name property to differentiate it from the other controls in
> your program. Maybe it would have a default constructor that
> would somehow create a label control whose control name
> would start with something like lbl and then end with the
> name of the single line edit control. And if the developer
> doesn't put in a value that would display to the screen, the
> label control's constructor or some other method would fill
> that in.
> 
> I know that I have to be missing something, but as I said,
> my knowledge in this area is limited.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Jim Homme,
> Usability Services,
> Phone: 412-544-1810. Skype: jim.homme
> Internal recipients,  Read my accessibility blog.
> Discuss accessibility here. Accessibility Wiki: Breaking
> news and accessibility advice
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Roopakshi Pathania
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 12:02 PM
> To: Jamal Mazrui
> Cc: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
> program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Developing cross-platform, accessible apps
> 
> 
> Hmm, staying clear of this debate, I can only say that Java
> does have a powerful accessibility API and assistive
> technologies do (sometimes) take advantage of the API to
> provide access to their users. The only difficulty is that
> no assistive technology can take full advantage of the
> inbuilt accessibility API for now.
> 
> While there are Swing based applications that are fully
> accessible, in fact MathTrax is a good example; many
> applications remain inaccessible either because of the
> limitations of the bridge, or because developers have their
> own style of coding which often doesn’t include
> techniques that would make an app accessible.
> This neglect on the part of the developers for not
> implementing practices like programmatically associating a
> control with its label is common in all programming
> languages.
> 
> But Swing based applications also get a bad name because
> information on how to use them is not documented at a
> centralized place. Things like reinstalling the bridge every
> time you upgrade the JVM, using CTRL-Tab to move out of a
> table, and using F10 to focus on the menu are not generally
> known.
> 
> Anyway, coming back to the actual topic, you also have
> wxPerl that would provide cross-platform accessibility.
> http://wxperl.sourceforge.net/

> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 6/13/10, Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> 
> > From: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: Re: Developing cross-platform, accessible
> apps
> > To: "Roopakshi Pathania" <r_akshi_tgk@xxxxxxxxx>
> > Cc: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
> program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Date: Sunday, June 13, 2010, 8:58 PM
> > This reminds me of a debate related
> > to Section 508 accessibility
> > standards.  Some argue that a software
> application
> > should be considered
> > accessible if it implements the main accessibility API
> of
> > the platform,
> > e.g., if a Java app implements the Java access API.
> > Others argue that
> > functional performance must also be considered as well
> as
> > design specs.
> >   So, if relevant assistive technology
> does not
> > support that API, then,
> > in practice, the app is inaccessible even though, in
> > theory, it could or
> > should be accessible.
> >
> > Proponents on one side say that it is optimal for the
> > responsibility for
> > accessibility to be divided among different parts of
> the
> > ecosystem that
> > necessarily must work together to achieve
> > accessibility.  If assistive
> > technologies do not take advantage of an API that is
> > availble, they are
> > at fault, not the application, and it is important for
> AT
> > to meet its
> > responsibility on behalf of users with disabilities.
> > Without such an
> > expectation on AT, its vendors will lack sufficient
> > incentive to support
> > APIs that are critical for accessibility.
> >
> > Proponents on the other side say that idea sounds good
> in
> > principle, but
> > the result can be that users with disabilities are set
> back
> > by
> > inaccessible apps in their work and personal lives, a
> > reality that is
> > unacceptable.
> >
> > Jamal
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6/13/2010 12:21 AM, Roopakshi Pathania wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Jamal,
> > >
> > > Well Most major screen readers support working
> with
> > Swing, even if a screen reader like Window Eyes uses
> a
> > different approach. I’ve checked and Hal also
> supports the
> > bridge.
> > > Besides, it’s not possible to dismiss
> access to
> > Swing based applications out of hand especially
> because
> > Swing components are widely used in software developed
> for
> > corporate environment. SAP and Oracle, both state the
> need
> > of using Java Access Bridge on their accessibility
> > requirements page.
> > >
> > > Java Access Bridge is probably the crux of the
> problem
> > because it does not expose the entire Java
> accessibility API
> > to a screen reader.
> > > If anyone is interested, here is a forum for
> > discussing accessibility of Java for developers who
> want to
> > make their software accessible.
> > > http://forums.sun.com/forum.jspa?forumID=3&start=0

> > >
> > > If you go through some of the posts,
> you’ll realize
> > the kind of limitations Java Access Bridge imposes on
> > assistive technology.
> > >
> > > I quite agree with Ken, we do need a better
> bridge to
> > Java’s accessibility API.
> > > This might be possible if we try to get
> developers
> > (from the general community) interested in this
> project.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 6/12/10, Jamal Mazrui<empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Jamal Mazrui<empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >> Subject: Re: Developing cross-platform,
> accessible
> > apps
> > >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> Cc: "Roopakshi Pathania"<r_akshi_tgk@xxxxxxxxx>,
> > program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> Date: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 11:54 PM
> > >> Hi Roopakshi,
> > >> I am aware of the Java access API, but
> > unfortunately, I do
> > >> not think
> > >> there is sufficient screen reader support for
> it
> > on
> > >> Windows.  This is
> > >> more the fault of the screen reader companies
> than
> > Sun,
> > >> since the API is
> > >> strong on the server side.
> > >>
> > >> Window-Eyes, for example, does not support
> that
> > API at
> > >> all.  JAWS works
> > >> partially.  I hear that NVDA works
> > well.  I do
> > >> not know about System
> > >> Access or Hal.  With the SWT approach,
> on the
> > other
> > >> hand, apps can be
> > >> fully accessible because native widgets are
> used,
> > including
> > >>
> > >> MSAA-integrated controls on Windows.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks for the info about Axtk, which I had
> not
> > heard
> > >> about.  At first,
> > >> I thought the name was associated with the
> > cross-platform
> > >> GUI library
> > >> called TK, which has poor accessibility, but
> I see
> > that it
> > >> is actually
> > >> wx-related, as you say.
> > >>
> > >> Jamal
> > >>
> > >> On 6/12/2010 11:53 AM, Roopakshi Pathania
> wrote:
> > >>   >
> > >>   >  Hi Jamal,
> > >>   >
> > >> Thanks for the info about Axtk -- I had not
> heard
> > of
> > >> it.  The name made
> > >> me first think it was related to the
> > cross-platform GUI
> > >> library called
> > >> TK, which has poor accessibility, but I see
> that
> > it is
> > >> based on
> > >> wxWdigets, as you say.
> > >>
> > >> Jamal
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 6/12/2010 11:53 AM, Roopakshi Pathania
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Jamal,
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> You left out Java Accessibility API that
> > provides
> > >> access to Swing based applications on all
> > platforms (not
> > >> completely sure about Mac) through Java
> Access
> > Bridge.
> > >>> In this regard, the guidelines laid down
> by
> > IBM on
> > >> developing a completely accessible Java
> > application are
> > >> quite useful.
> > >>> http://www-03.ibm.com/able/guidelines/software/accesssoftware.html

> > >>>
> > >>> I like to point the developers of
> > inaccessible
> > >> applications to this page.
> > >>>
> > >>> One more toolkit might be of interest:
> AxTk.
> > >>> http://code.google.com/p/axtk/

> > >>>
> > >>> It is built on wxWidgets and is
> especially
> > geared
> > >> towards screen reader users. It is also
> suppose to
> > have text
> > >> to speech wrapper class supporting a number
> of
> > speech
> > >> engines.
> > >>>
> > >>> I’m building my own tools for
> financial and
> > data
> > >> analysis, so have looked at cross-platform
> > accessible
> > >> libraries.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards
> > >>> Roopakshi
> > >>>
> > >>> --- On Sat, 6/12/10, Jamal Mazrui<empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> From: Jamal Mazrui<empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >>>> Subject: Developing cross-platform,
> > accessible
> > >> apps
> > >>>> To: "programmingblind"<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> > >> program-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >>>> Date: Saturday, June 12, 2010, 8:27
> PM
> > >>>> This is to share some points I have
> > >>>> learned about developing
> cross-platform,
> > >> GUI-accessible,
> > >>>> desktop apps.  Currently, the
> key is
> > using
> > >> programming
> > >>>> libraries that wrap native widgets of
> the
> > >> platform. These
> > >>>> native widgets generally implement
> the
> > main
> > >> accessibility
> > >>>> API of the platform, much more so
> than
> > custom
> > >> widgets.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Windows, native widgets are most
> likely
> > to
> > >> implement
> > >>>> Microsoft Active Accessibility, or
> > >> increasingly, User
> > >>>> Interface Automation as it replaces
> > MSAA.  On
> > >> Linux,
> > >>>> the GTK+ widgets that are native to
> the
> > Gnome
> > >> desktop
> > >>>> implement the Assistive Technology
> > Service
> > >> Provider
> > >>>> Interface. On the Mac, Cocoa-based
> > widgets
> > >> implement the Mac
> > >>>> Accessibility Protocol.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thus, a cross-platform library is
> most
> > likely to
> > >> create
> > >>>> accessible GUIs if it wraps native
> widgets
> > of each
> > >> platform,
> > >>>> rather than defining its own
> > widgets.  A
> > >> disadvantage
> > >>>> of this approach is that the
> developer
> > needs to be
> > >> conscious
> > >>>> of small differences in the behavior
> of
> > widgets
> > >> across
> > >>>> platforms, even though wrapping code
> of
> > the
> > >> library tries to
> > >>>> minimize such differences. 
> Besides
> > >> accessibility, an
> > >>>> advantage of this approach is that
> widgets
> > have
> > >> the look and
> > >>>> feel that sighted users are
> accustomed to
> > >> experiencing on
> > >>>> each platform.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sometimes, a GUI library is closely
> > associated
> > >> with a
> > >>>> programming language that has
> especially
> > strong
> > >> support for
> > >>>> that library in wrapper functions
> and
> > design
> > >> tools.  A
> > >>>> few language and library combinations
> that
> > seem to
> > >> work
> > >>>> particularly well for
> cross-platform,
> > accessible
> > >> development
> > >>>> are as follows:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> *  Java and the Standard Widget
> > Toolkit
> > >>>> http://www.eclipse.org/swt/

> > >>>>
> > >>>> *  Python and wxWidgets
> > >>>> http://wxPython.org

> > >>>>
> > >>>> *  C# and the
> System.Windows.Forms
> > classes of
> > >> the Mono
> > >>>> Framework
> > >>>> http://mono-project.org

> > >>>>
> > >>>> Note that, in this case, the
> Microsoft
> > .NET
> > >> Framework
> > >>>> should be used as the runtime
> environment
> > on
> > >> Windows in
> > >>>> order to have native widget support.
> > >>>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/default.aspx

> > >>>>
> > >>>> If others have further info or ideas
> on
> > this
> > >> topic, please
> > >>>> share.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Jamal
> > >>>>
> > >>>> __________
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> > >>>
> > >>>
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> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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