Re: Case sensitivity - feedback welcome
- From: "James Panes" <jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 08:52:28 -0400
Unfortunately, with the Real Speak voices that have been available since JAWS
10, changing the voice pitch is not an option. That is why I'm still using the
Eloquence Speech engine.
Regards,
Jim
jimpanes@xxxxxxxxx
jimpanes@xxxxxxxxxxxx
"Everything is easy when you know how."
----- Original Message -----
From: qubit
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Case sensitivity - feedback welcome
Hi -- I have only one comment on mixed case identification. I once used an old
screen reader (VertPlus I believe it was) that had the option of putting a beep
immediately before a capital while spelling out a word. At first this seemed
like it would be a good choice, but when I put it on I found that my brain
actually processed the beeps independently of the text being read. I mean, if
it was going fast, I heard the beeps, and the letters blasting by, but I
couldn't fit the beeps with the characters, even with a little pause between
characters for the beep.
Having the synth speak "cap" or whatever takes time to listen to, but like
speaking punctuation, I find I can process this -- but raising pitch of capital
letters is probably my preferred setting.
Anyway, I'd be interested in anyone else's experience.
Happy listening.
--le
----- Original Message -----
From: Kerneels Roos
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: Case sensitivity - feedback welcome
If I'm not mistaking, some components of emacspeak, the speech system for
emacs performs a type of audio syntax highlighting which is probably out of
scope for the Sodbeans project. Everyone has their own preferences regarding
this topic, as usual, which is good but highlights the need for customisable
behaviour. Not sure if someone has mentioned this yet, but a short beep just
before speaking a camel case word which starts with a capital could also be
helpful. For full caps words, like what is common for constants in C and C++
the whole word could be spoken with a significantly raised pitch. There are
basically these things to identify via audio output:
1. Does the word start with a capital?
2. Is the word camel case?
3. Is the word all caps?
Then there are these auditory queues:
1. Short beep.
2. Higher pitch.
3. Say "caps".
4. Say "caps caps".
5. Use another voice.
Sounds are much faster than speaking something and it could even be played
while the word is spoken.
What would work best would depend on the programming language, the
perceptiveness of the listener and the frequency of particular syntax patterns.
Regards,
Kerneels
On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 6:10 AM, Dave <davidct1209@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
To echo some of what others have said... Style conventions in the
language itself such as #define vars being all capped, classes capped,
etc becomes almost second nature after some experience with the
language.
Certain languages do present interesting challenges. I'm looking at
you lisp, and objective C. Having voice changes reflect syntax
highlighting could be a very interesting and potentially helpful
feature for someone who's reading code as opposed to writing with the
use of a screen reader. As screen readers mostly come with text unit
type navigation, I believe it would be helpful to overlay a "voice"
map. For example, keywords would be spoken in a different voice than
variables or constants.
On 6/3/10, Øyvind Lode <oyvind.lode@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Same goes for C#.
> I'm trying to learn to program.
> I decided to go with C# which is a case sensitive language, but I have no
> problem with that at all.
> A Braille display is very handy <smile>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stanzel,
Susan -
> Kansas City, MO
> Sent: 3. juni 2010 21:02
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: Case sensitivity - feedback welcome
>
> Hi Listers,
>
> I program in Java and this is a case sensitive computer language. I would
> need to know rather dramatically if the first letter of a word, a cap in
the
> middle (like in the beginning of a second and subsequent word, or the
entire
> word is in caps.
>
> Susie Stanzel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 12:58 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Cc: Andreas Stefik; Sodbeans
> Subject: Re: Case sensitivity - feedback welcome
>
> I definately recommend using either PascalCase or camelCase as naming
> conventions for identifiers, since screen readers today say the
> component words separately, even without white space, which aids
> comprehension. I think case-insensitivity of the language, itself,
> however, is friendlier to beginners (like Visual Basic, VBScript, or
> VBA), rather than a language where casing mistakes trip up the compiler
> or interpreter. (Similarly, a language that does not require
> indentation is friendlier.) I am not saying that case-sensitivity is a
> big deal: just that its absence is friendlier to beginning programmers.
>
> Jamal
>
> On 6/3/2010 11:40 AM, Andreas Stefik wrote:
>> Hey folks,
>>
>> Our development team over here is working on the finishing touches on
>> the Sodbeans project before release, which is on schedule for early July
>> (Hooray!). One of the bugs currently listed in our bug database is that
>> our text-to-speech engine doesn't distinguish between "case" in variable
>> names. As I go through and use Voice Over (I'm on mac at the moment), I
>> notice that it doesn't distinguish between case in words either,
>> although, like most screen readers, it uses prosody to indicate case for
>> specific letters.
>>
>> So, I have two questions:
>>
>> 1. How do most blind individuals deal with case and case sensitivity
>> while programming? My guess is that most people, if there's a case
>> issue, have go through a variable character by character. Is there other
>> strategies? Do other screen readers have features for dealing with these
>> issues?
>>
>> 2. All else being equal, would it be desirable for the blind community
>> to have a programming language be completely case insensitive? Or,
>> alternatively, should we output special auditory cues if something is in
>> Camel Case?
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts the community is willing to offer would be appreciated.
>> What we really want to know is, is this issue a really big deal, or does
>> it not cause many problems in practice?
>>
>> Stefik
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--
Kerneels Roos
Cell/SMS: +27 (0)82 309 1998
Skype: cornelis.roos
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