[program-java] Re: FW: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
- From: "J. R. Westmoreland" <jr@xxxxxxx>
- To: <program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 07:09:05 -0600
Sorry that didn't make sense on a reread. I should have said that there is
work on a OpenSource replacement for the AccessBridge. I should check closer
and not write when in a hurry. LOL
Best,
J. R.
-----Original Message-----
From: program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Corbett, James
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 6:21 AM
To: 'program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'
Subject: [program-java] Re: FW: Credible rumor that deserves serious
consideration, IMHO
Hi:
I wouldn't go as far as to say that SWING and SWT are outdated. They both
serve different masters as does STRUTS.
J.
-----Original Message-----
From: program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of J. R. Westmoreland
Sent: October 12, 2010 17:36
To: program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [program-java] Re: FW: Credible rumor that deserves serious
consideration, IMHO
I have been talking with a few people who tell me that there is work on a
replacement that will be open source. Whether it will be call for call
compatible I don't know.
Jeff mentioned it to me last. Let me ask him for more info.
J. R.
-----Original Message-----
From: program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:program-java-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Stanzel, Susan -
Kansas City, MO
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:28 PM
To: program-java@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [program-java] FW: Credible rumor that deserves serious
consideration, IMHO
Hi Listers,
There is a rumor that Oracle is going to drop support for the Java Access
Bridge. This thread has been going on and on since Saturday. One of the
people suggested that some "foundation" should take up this fight. I have
been waiting for someone to say their job will be immediately impacted if
Oracle drops support of the Java Access Bridge. At the U.S. Department of
Agriculture we write our own web applications using Struts. Swing and SWT
don't seem to be used because they are out dated.
Is this a real problem or are there enough work arounds that this will not
have any effect on blind Java developers.
Susie Stanzel
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jared Wright
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 3:34 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration, IMHO
#2 was my answer to #1, but then I read #4. *grin* I don't think we can wish
away Swing, too many mainstream developers just like using it. The JNI is a
messy way to wrap the Swing controls, but given that our project is going to
have to wrap Swing controls into accessible versions of them (which will
probably vary from OS to OS), I had figured operating system independence
was hoping for a bit much. Like I said though, I hit #4 and will check out
this approach. I'm guessing I could look at the Sodbeans source for an
example?
On 10/12/2010 02:55 PM, Andreas Stefik wrote:
> Here's my two cents:
>
> 1. JNI is a useful technology to be sure, but creating these kinds of
> swing wrappers are difficult to write and operating system dependent.
>
> 2. SWT is a neat technology as well, although a lot of the Java folks
> I work with shy away from it because it's proprietary and doesn't work
> everywhere. Also, the GUI editors sighted users often use are
> massively superior for swing, when compared to SWT, so far as I
> understand it.
>
> 3. A big partnership agreement between IBM and Oracle was recently
> announced on the NetBeans dream team list (membership is not public),
> and it sounds like everything is going to be moving to OpenJDK. This
> could be huge for this community, in my opinion.
>
> 4. Another alternative to using JNI is to create listener
> architectures that can plug into Java programs (including swing), and
> output that to a text-to-speech engine. This solution isn't perfect
> either, but it does allow for a cross-platform solution to outputting
> information to a screen reader. This is what we do on the Sodbeans
> project, for the entire NetBeans platform (over 2 million lines of
> code), and it works just fine in most cases, without the Java access
> bridge.
>
> Anyway, I don't think there is a perfect, works in every case,
> solution to this problem (yet!), but I'm enjoying this discussion, as
> it gives lots of ideas on how to approach these problems as everyone
> proceeds,
>
> Stefik
>
> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Chris Hofstader<cdh@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
>
>> What part of "Director of Access Technology" implies "source for
licensing questions?
>>
>> All licensing queries are generic at FSF and such questions should
>> be
sent to someone at FSF who knows better about such things than I do. I do
not have the time to be a courier for your questions regarding generic FSF
policy as I am completely swamped with actual accessibility issues. Just
because licensing issues also effect accessibility projects does not make
them any less generic and, therefore, definitely not in my department.
>>
>> FruitBasket is an accessibility issue and after nudging people on the
subject of porting the FB programs to Gnome, I finally had no takers so put
out the call for volunteers yesterday. This sort of thing is my job and I'm
happy to add such things to my task list but, because of really enormous
problems (Gnome 3 for instance), I can't always get to different tasks too
quickly.
>>
>> If I remember correctly, you were a policy or politics major at
Princeton? Why don't you volunteer to read FSF policy statements regarding
licenses and how you see them effecting accessibility and, if I can get it
approved by the higher ups in FSF, we can post it as a white paper. I'm
really not suited to such things and, even if I was, I haven't the time to
spend away from actual software development projects going on all over the
world.
>>
>> If a generic question is asked framed in accessibility language, it
doesn't become more apropos to accessibility - it remains generic and should
be sent to someone at FSF expert in such matters. I am not this person and
do not want to become this person and, therefore, will not become this
person.
>>
>> cdh
>>
>> "
>> On Oct 12, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Jamal Mazrui wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I think support could include various things such as publicity by
>>> GNU,
links on the gnu.org site, attempts by GNU staff to recruit other developers
to the project, hardware donations, financial grants, etc.. As background,
soon after I joined the GNU accessibility hackers list that Chris started,
someone was trying to organize developers to work on voice dictation
software that made use of proprietary components. RMS made it clear that
the list could not be used for such discussion because such a project would
violate FSF principles. Clearly, that project would not receive endorsement
or other support from GNU, even just space on one of its email discussion
lists.
>>>
>>> So, I think it is a fair and important question to clarify whether
software components that have licenses that FSF says are GPL-incompatible
may be used in projects that receive support from resources of GNU. I would
think that the GNU Director of Accessibility is the appropriate person to
ask such a question, and that if he does not know the answer off hand, he
can obtain it and relay that information.
>>>
>>> Jamal
>>>
>>> On 10/11/2010 5:06 PM, Sina Bahram wrote:
>>>
>>>> Please define support
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>> Sina
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jamal Mazrui
>>>> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 4:47 PM
>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Cc: Chris Hofstader
>>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>>> IMHO
>>>>
>>>> A few weeks ago, I looked on the FSF site for some kind of opinion
>>>> on
the Oracle suit against Google over Android/Java, and was
>>>> surprised not to find one. FSF tends to have opinions on big
>>>> issues in
the field related to software copyrights and patents. If
>>>> FSF does have an opinion on this, would you point us to a link?
>>>>
>>>> Also, did you ever get an authoritative answer on whether GNU will
support accessibility-related development projects that use
>>>> library components that are licensed under the Eclipse Public License?
>>>>
>>>> Jamal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/11/2010 9:58 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Oracle may not "own" mysql and definitely does not own the version
forked from the code base into a separate line of development
>>>>>
>>>> entirely outside of Oracle.
>>>>
>>>>> Oracle is claiming that they "own" the mysql copyright. If
>>>>> *anyone* in
the wild contributed as little as a single line of code to
>>>>>
>>>> the project, even if they did so anonymously, they also own part of
that copyright. Also, if anyone working at Sun had not signed an
>>>> assignment of copyright agreement, they too own part of the
>>>> copyrighted
source code. Thus, although they claim they will change the
>>>> license, they may not e ale to do so in a manner that would hold up
>>>> in
a courtroom.
>>>>
>>>>> Oracle can add proprietary and very pretty UI elements that call
>>>>> into
mysql to their heart's content. These will, knowing Oracle's
>>>>>
>>>> track record, not be FLOSS and, also following Oracle's history,
>>>> will,
at best, probably be only partially accessible.
>>>>
>>>>> The only accessibility engineers remaining at Oracle are Peter and
>>>>> the
accessibility people working on OpenOffice, another FLOSS
>>>>>
>>>> project that Oracle is trying to make proprietary. Regarding the
>>>> office
suite, Oracle can make a proprietary fork and stop
>>>> contributing to the FLOSS version. To this end a group of people
>>>> have
banded together to form the Document Foundation and have
>>>> rebranded OpenOffice.org as LibreOffice. We at FSF/GNU see
>>>> LibreOffice
accessibility as essential to the future of an accessible
>>>> planet and will be involved at some level in the new fork.
>>>>
>>>>> cdh
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:14 AM, Kerneels Roos wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read some blogs on the recent Oracle World and Java One
>>>>>> conference
held by Oracle. It seems they are, as we expected, a much
>>>>>>
>>>> more business savvy company than Sun was. The former Java One
confernces were very much developer minded, while the recent one
>>>> presented by Oracle gave the indication that they are far more
>>>> business
minded and are working strategically towards set goals.
>>>>
>>>>>> Very interesting development is their plans for MySQL which they
apparently also own now, in particular their plans to develop
>>>>>>
>>>> very nice user interfaces for managing MySQL databases so that
>>>> there
will be greater adoption of it in the Windows + Visual Studio
>>>> world. Their ideal would be to have MySQL integrate directly with
Visual Studio, but I'm digressing...
>>>>
>>>>>> Since Oracle wants to make profit mostly (or only) and maintain a
nice public profile, it would be up to the stake holders in
>>>>>>
>>>> Java Accessibility to convince them that it is indeed in their best
interest to give it a high priority. If by reasoning about it we
>>>> can come to the conclusion that there is no real advantage for them
>>>> in
investing in furthering Java Accessibility then another route
>>>> needs to be perseued. Such another route might be an open source
development of the JAB, a third party development of the JAB.
>>>>
>>>>>> We want access to be free, but if for a small price you could get
>>>>>> an
up to date JAB that makes Java extremely accessible then
>>>>>>
>>>> that is better than the alternative of no, or out dated access.
>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that if one can convince a company nicely that
accessibility is important then they will do a good job at it, as aposed
>>>>>>
>>>> to it being a legally enforced thing, or a pressured thing. I agree
with another person on this list, think it was Tylor, that
>>>> asking people nicely to change their web sites RE accessible
>>>> captchas
for example is far better than screaming at them over email.
>>>> All the more so if you can give them food for thought in terms of
numbers.
>>>>
>>>>>> If it's a better idea to have foundations for the blind
>>>>>> interacting
with Oracle about this then we as the community need to first
>>>>>>
>>>> approach our local and international foundations. There is so much
>>>> that
can be done, like pettitions, fund raising, awareness,
>>>> pressure from the general public, pressure from M$, pressure from
>>>> their
clients that are far removed from accessibility issues but
>>>> that do have a morral concions.
>>>>
>>>>>> Java is a great language to program in if you are blind due to
>>>>>> it's
verbose nature and well thought out standard libraries.
>>>>>>
>>>> Oracle's plans (to my best judgement) for Java is long but over.
>>>> They
are also planning more JDK releases by spreading future
>>>> features over the various releases. On top of that, there are
>>>> millions
of lines of legacy Java that will have to be maintained for
>>>> many years to come, so a career as a Java Programmer will remain a
>>>> good
choice for blind programmers regardless, but it would be so
>>>> much better if it is certain that Oracle will strive to improve
>>>> Java
accessibility onwards.
>>>>
>>>>>> So what would be the next step?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Kerneels
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/11/2010 3:11 AM, Stanzel, Susan - Kansas City, MO wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Listers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have not stepped into this until now. I would hope that
>>>>>>> needing
government contracts in the United States would have some
>>>>>>>
>>>> affect on all this. I have asked people about swing and I am told
>>>> it
isn't used very much because there is newer technology out
>>>> there. I am not an experienced Java programmer so maybe the rest of
>>>> you
will know more than I do. I know we use Struts at my
>>>> building for creation of web projects. If I have just made a fool
>>>> of
myself, it's not the first time and won't be the last. (grin).
>>>>
>>>>>>> Susie Stanzel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of The
>>>>>>> Elf
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:08 PM
>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>>>>>> IMHO
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hey, this is my usual line, "beat them into submission" lol
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> or hound,or pummel, or...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> elf
>>>>>>> Moderator, Blind Access Help
>>>>>>> Owner: Alacorn Computer Enterprises Specialists in customized
>>>>>>> computers and peripherals
>>>>>>> - own the might and majesty of a Alacorn!
>>>>>>> www.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>>> proprietor, The Grab Bag,
>>>>>>> for blind computer users and programmers
>>>>>>> http://grabbag.alacorncomputer.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Sina Bahram"<sbahram@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To:<programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:14 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious consideration,
>>>>>>> IMHO
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wow, it only took like 15 emails on the subject, but finally
>>>>>>>> the voice of reason has made itself known.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ken, I completely agree. Now is the time to pressure them into
>>>>>>>> actually not abandoning it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>>> Sina
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken
>>>>>>>> Perry
>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 1:10 AM
>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: Credible rumor that deserves serious
>>>>>>>> consideration, IMHO
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If this is true then it's not time to tell people to stay away.
>>>>>>>> It's time to get people to get active and start emailing and
>>>>>>>> calling them till they do support it. If we stay away we lose
>>>>>>>> what accessibility was there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ken
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
>>>>>>>> Storm Dragon
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 11:09 PM
>>>>>>>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Credible rumor that deserves serious
>>>>>>>> consideration, IMHO
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> I would not doubt it for one second. They dropped the ball on
>>>>>>>> Linux accessibility pretty much first thing when they took over
Sun.
>>>>>>>> It's probably a good idea, if you have influence over software
>>>>>>>> decisions, to encourage companies, clients, and friends to stay
>>>>>>>> far far away from Oracle and their software. I was even going
>>>>>>>> to get rid of Open Office but fortunately the version used in
>>>>>>>> Ubuntu is a fork so not subject to them. unless, that is, they
>>>>>>>> somehow manage to win their evil attack on Google. If that
>>>>>>>> happens, who knows who they will attack next. Keep your fingers
>>>>>>>> crossed, and maybe the open source community will keep the
>>>>>>>> Bridge going, Orca is still alive and well after all.
>>>>>>>> Storm
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Registered Linux user number 508465:
>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/
>>>>>>>> My blog, Thoughts of a Dragon:
>>>>>>>> http://www.stormdragon.us/
>>>>>>>> Get yourself a Frostbox:
>>>>>>>> http://www.frostbitesystems.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 2010-10-09 at 08:15 +0530, prateek aggarwal wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> oh know,
>>>>>>>> i wish its just a rumor.
>>>>>>>> if its ever going to be true, i'll be so said.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>> prateek agarwal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/9/10, Jamal Mazrui<empower@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I heard from a good source today that Oracle has decided to
>>>>>>>>> discontinue support for the Java Access Bridge (and no
>>>>>>>>> alternative is planned). I would be glad to be convinced
>>>>>>>>> otherwise. If anyone has information regarding this topic, please
share.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jamal
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> __________
>>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kerneels Roos
>>>>>> Cell: +27 (0)82 309 1998
>>>>>> Skype: cornelis.roos
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Common Sense" is not "Common Practice" .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The Strawberry Jam Law:
>>>>>> The wider you spread it, the thinner it gets..."
>>>>>> -- from the Java Specialist Newsletter, from a book on
consulting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________
>>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> __________
>>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>> __________
>>>> View the list's information and change your settings at
>>>> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>>>>
>>>>
>> __________
>> View the list's information and change your settings at
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>>
>>
>>
> __________
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>
>
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